Consciousness and Levels of Awareness

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Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 2, 2018 - 11:51am PT
Infinite awareness seems to intersect with John Long's open awareness experience that he has discussed at length in the WisM thread. He has postulated that his experience is not describable in physical terms:

"That is, awareness and consciousness are fundamentally unlike other "things" that physics and biology are designed to explain."
-


Several things worth mentioning re the above.

It's not so much that I'm saying you CAN'T describe subjectivity itself in objective terms, it's just that nobody has any idea how to do it or what it would possibly entail. What, exactly, are we to measure within the experiential realm itself?

What usually happens here is that (as Chalmers has pointed out), people simply shift the focus away from subjectivity itself, go to the brain, pull a measurement and say, THAT'S subjectivity, you only think it is something else, when in fact subjectivity is itself no more than a physical process.

Of course this is logically incoherent, but what's a physicalist to do?

The problem boils down to a couple things (as mentioned many time) Nagel said back in the 70s.

"The mind-body problem is about what experience IS, not how it is caused. The difficulty is that conscious experience has an essentially subjective character—what it is like for its subject, from the inside—that purely physical processes do not share."

That is, no matter how comprehensive your physical description IS, it is NOT describing subjectivity itself, rather it is a causal description of the brain that is taken to "cause" or birth subjectivity. Physical concepts describe the world as it is in itself, and not for any conscious subject, ergo a physical description leaves out the very phenomenon that we are inquiring about.

Physical concepts describe the world as it is in itself, and not for any conscious subject. This in not debatable. Physics has never been called on to discuss or describe any phenomenon that did not involve physical stuff or phenomenon as it is in itself - that is, in terms of physical attributes. NONE of the physical attributes in all of physics has a subjective character. Whether physics is helpful in investigating mind and consciousness itself is a big question, though it might be very key in describing brain function. But the fact it it has no track record in dealing with experience itself.

What happens here is that people make all sorts of wonky attempts to describe subjectivity AS objective data, a calculation, brain output, an algorithm, not realizing they have defaulted back to a causal investigation and are not even talking about subjectivity.

In the physical sciences, there is nothing more than physical processes, so there is never a need to try and wrangle more. But all attempts to frame consciousness itself as a physical thing or phenomenon go no distance in explaining what mind IS. Again, what something is, so far as science is concerned, has ALWAYS been answered with physical/causal descriptors. So it is no wonder that some are trying to cram mind into that box. Trying to do so is, in my mind, the very quintessence of woo, masquerading as science.

TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 01:28pm PT
Yes, John, it is very challenging to communicate to someone on a subject where there is little or no shared experience base.

During my early studies in artificial intelligence, I was trying to understand how it is that people can convey so much information in face to face conversation, when the information I/O rate is so pedestrian compared to computer networks.

When I finally figured it out, I was embarrassed that it took me so long to understand.

So I realized that it is not so much about the streaming I/O rate as it is about shared experiential mental models which can be manipulated in conversation using very few words.

For example, if you want to talk about sailing and you ask your new dinner companion about their level of interest in the subject ... so they reply that they get sea sick on the dock and get dizzy watching waves at the beach ... well that sets a level of challenge for any ensuing conversation on the subject.

However if they reply that they regularly race the TransPac and came in 7th last year! ... well you are off to a running start on an interesting conversation!

So that realization became the focus of my development of the AI 'Inference Engine' for knowledge-based software systems ... how do you capture and logically codify the experiential model for the operating domain of your software system?? That proved a very successful approach and I did a lot of them.

So how do you discuss the domains of spiritual awareness with people who share no common experiential mental models in those domains and insist upon regarding such as strange anomalies arising entirely within and from a solid physical universe??? LOL!
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 02:03pm PT
So how do you discuss the domains of spiritual awareness with people who share no common experiential mental models in those domains and insist upon regarding such as strange anomalies arising entirely within and from a solid physical universe??? LOL!

You don't. They will insist that it is not needed.

such as Hal Putoff and Ingo Swann

I am familiar with this subject. I find Ingo a fascinating individual. He and Putoff really tried to do science as relates to woo. Few are that bold or imaginative.

I know it might sound strange to some but I am not a science vs. woo guy, more of a science and woo guy. How can that be? It is a matter of practicality and reconciliation.

One strange thing that I learned from experience is that old concept of enlightenment and bliss from Eastern Philosophy and Religion is quite outdated and plain wrong in a modern context. Don't ask me to explain it but Enlightenment does not bring bliss but rather remorse and if you need it it makes a good metric.

What are good metrics for truth as experienced and understood?
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:00pm PT
Quote Here


"The mind-body problem is about what experience IS, not how it is caused. The difficulty is that conscious experience has an essentially subjective character—what it is like for its subject, from the inside—that purely physical processes do not share."


So why are we talkin
?

I'm [going to have] to assume we all know three or four levels of consciousness

Say - awake, asleep, asleep-rem, anesthetized°

What are the others under consideration?

Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:05pm PT
Tom and Wayno, what I believe - but do not know - you are saying relates more to consciousness and the content of consciousness (thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, etc.) that simple awareness, which in my view is the connector between the subjective and objective, and which dissolves duality once one realizes what is at play.

So long as you are dealing with inputs and information and so forth, you still have one foot - and a big foot - sunk in causitive/mechanistic sand. And you can always argue over what is there in terms of content. That's why, in my view, Chalmers made a mistake in trying to anchor his Hard Problem on the appearance of qualia (content), and the what-it-is-like to experience content.

Take Uncle Dennett, for example. He proclaims that consciousness is an illusion, not realizing the logical incoherence of this stand. Or at least part of it. ALL of his arguments are based on the fact that the mind can misrepresent the content of consciousness so convincingly that we believe it is "real." But he cannot question the fact that there is SOMETHING there, and that we are aware of it. If you move to more fundamental levels, to awareness itself, Dennett sounds absurd. What's more, he is stating with certainly that consciousness is illusory, while using consciousness to draw his conclusions.

Long story short, in my mind the real interesting work involves looking at base awareness, which isn't digital or discrete or the output of any thing or mechanism. A great starting point is plotting the difference between machine registration, which occurs in a computer, and what happens in an aware human being.
Mungeclimber

Trad climber
Nothing creative to say
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:08pm PT
Tom,

You wrote in a couple spots in response...

"how do you discuss the domains of spiritual awareness with people who share no common experiential mental models in those domains and insist upon regarding such as strange anomalies arising entirely within and from a solid physical universe??? LOL! "


"If you have not accepted the concept of consciousness external from a material body and brain, then this thread should just be tagged as irrelevant woo woo, and so you can in all good conscience ignore it and rejoin the other discussion threads"

"This thread is not about body/brain/mind systems. It is about levels of awareness independent of those."


Each of these statements assume and distance us from bothering with further engagement.

From most of the posts I'm not getting a sense that a statement about the experience of "levels" of awareness has been pushed forward. Instead it seems like a statement 'about' statements of awareness are being pushed.

Let me just ask:

What is does a level of awareness X have in common with level of awareness Y?

What is different between them?

How is 'greater' awareness more valuable? (not sure if you used that word 'greater' but I think its been used or a similar term used to show that a simplistic materialistic view doesn't account for reflection on the experience/phenomenon of awareness)

Is awareness = reflection or reflexive thinking? Or are you trying to describe non-reflexive awareness?


The notion was put out above that everything is one or connected, in a simple and limited linguistic description.


The replies I'm trying to write are essentially that I don't get the sense that consciousness and levels of awareness has been explained very well and that in contrast a gross materialist's or even a polite materialist's view from what may be discussed here are only different in terms of the particular language 'game' being 'played'. The 'experience' being the same as experienced, but as we relate it back here is prone to errors of language and memory (and so humanly, about power).


Will save comments for later on subjectivity and objectively describing it. Are they truly incommensurable notions?



MH2

Boulder climber
Andy Cairns
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:11pm PT
Long story short, in my mind the real interesting work involves looking at base awareness, which isn't digital or discrete or the output of any thing or mechanism. A great starting point is plotting the difference between machine registration, which occurs in a computer, and what happens in an aware human being.


Why is your standard a computer?
mynameismud

climber
backseat
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:32pm PT
computers were originally individuals
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 03:41pm PT
Why is your standard a computer?

I was thinking that also. I know more than one person on the Mind thread has used computer analogies but I don't personally think along those lines. So when people use computer terminology to describe mind and brain stuff I feel like Lewis Black and I start waving my hands and around spittle forms in the corner of my mouth. That's when I throw my hands up and go home. ;o

Munge, I enjoy you perspective. Really.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 04:30pm PT
Very interesting and thoughtful responses and exactly the sort of discussions I was hoping this thread would inspire.

There are now several different open questions on the table where I would like to respond ... get back to me again if I miss addressing something important ...

I have been following the work of Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff since the early 1970s ... and yes they sure put some work into it. Unfortunately much of their work and vast amounts of related work are not available to the public. I don't want to just dump a bunch of references in your lap, so I'll try to put them out for discussion a bit at a time.

Princeton University in New Jersey has contributed a tremendous amount of work with empirical scientific investigation into this subject, at the Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research Laboratory.

One of their publications is a 146 page research paper titled 'On the Quantum Mechanics of Consciousness, with Application to Anomalous Phenomena' by Robert G. Jahn and Brenda J. Dunne in December 1983 PEAR 83005.1 revised June 1984

The bulk of this paper documents experiments researching how thought wave forms from consciousness directly effect the material reality.

Theoretical explication of psychic phenomena is not likely to be achieved in terms of known physical processes. Rather, it will first be necessary to formulate the basic role of consciousness in the definition of an physical reality before such anomalous experiences can adequately be represented. This paper takes the position that reality is constituted only in the interaction of consciousness with its environment, and therefore that any scheme of conceptual organization developed to represent that reality must reflect the processes of consciousness as well as those of its environment. In this spirit, the concepts and formalisms of elementary quantum mechanics, originally developed to explain anomalous physical phenomena may, via metaphor, be appropriated to represent the characteristics of consciousness interacting with its environment. More specifically, if a consciousness is represented by a quantum mechanical wave function, and its environment, including its own physical corpus, is represented by an appropriate potential profile, Schrodinger wave mechanics yields eigenfunctions and eigenvalues that can be associated with the cognitive and emotional experiences of that consciousness in that environment. ...


Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
Tom and Wayno, what I believe - but do not know - you are saying relates more to consciousness and the content of consciousness (thoughts, feelings, sensations, memories, etc.) that simple awareness, which in my view is the connector between the subjective and objective, and which dissolves duality once one realizes what is at play.

Wrong riff. I think - but do not know - is that you meant to use the cowboy riff. ;)
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 04:54pm PT
I'm [going to have] to assume we all know three or four levels of consciousness

Say - awake, asleep, asleep-rem, anesthetized°

What are the others under consideration?

Yes, it's pretty basic for everyone to have some simple level of understanding of levels of awareness ... if only from getting bonked in the head with a baseball in the schoolyard! So, for starters just look at the range of emotional conditions available during states of awakeness: ranging up from apathy, grief, fear, anger, antagonism, boredom, enthusiasm and up to serenity ... with many nuances in between.... not to mention getting drunk or high (not recommended)

And bio-feedback equipment reveals that a practiced meditator can remain fully alert while attaining the states normally experienced as sleep, deep rem sleep and fully anesthetized. Regression techniques reveal that a fully anesthetized patient is still mentally recording their surroundings with great clarity.

But I haven't answered your question yet.

People usually have enough of a challenge attaining a meditative state of complete serenity, so that this is often looked at as the end goal of meditation, medication, and/or religious/philosophical perfection.

Well it isn't, not even close. Attaining a calm meditative state is not the last step, it is the first step into the realms of spiritual awareness.

We already briefly mentioned above the detection of brain wave frequencies using EEG or bio-feedback equipment. Back in the 1980s I worked with a company developing brain scan equipment showing a 3D real-time model of color coded brain activity.

Here's some interesting commentary from the medical community, although I don't necessarily agree with all their analysis:

5 Types Of Brain Waves Frequencies: Gamma, Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta

It is important to know that all humans display five different types of electrical patterns or “brain waves” across the cortex. The brain waves can be observed with an EEG (or an “electroencephalograph”) – a tool that allows researchers to note brain wave patterns. Each brain wave has a purpose and helps serve us in optimal mental functioning.

Our brain’s ability to become flexible and/or transition through various brain wave frequencies plays a large role in how successful we are at managing stress, focusing on tasks, and getting a good night’s sleep.

Each serves a purpose to help us cope with various situations – whether it is to help us process and learn new information or help us calm down after a long stressful day. The five brain waves in order of highest frequency to lowest are as follows: gamma, beta, alpha, theta, and delta.
5 Brain Waves: Frequencies To Understand

Before I get into specifics, it is important to realize that when I refer to a certain brain wave, I am implying that a particular brain wave is “dominant.” Throughout the day in your waking state, your EEG will display all 5 types of brain waves at the same time. However, one particular brain wave will be dominant depending on the state of consciousness that you are in.

For example, if you are awake, but have really bad ADHD, you may have more slow wave (alpha and/or theta) activity than beta waves. During sleep usually there are combinations of the slower frequencies, but even gamma has been found to be involved in rapid-eye movement (REM). Below is a brief description of each brainwave state, but a more in-depth understanding can be derived from the book “Getting Started with Neurofeedback.”

Gamma Waves

These are involved in higher processing tasks as well as cognitive functioning. Gamma waves are important for learning, memory and information processing. It is thought that the 40 Hz gamma wave is important for the binding of our senses in regards to perception and are involved in learning new material. It has been found that individuals who are mentally challenged and have learning disabilities tend to have lower gamma activity than average.

Frequency range: 40 Hz to 100 Hz (Highest)
Too much: Anxiety, high arousal, stress
Too little: ADHD, depression, learning disabilities
Optimal: Binding senses, cognition, information processing, learning, perception, REM sleep
Increase gamma waves: Meditation

Beta Waves

These are known as high frequency low amplitude brain waves that are commonly observed while we are awake. They are involved in conscious thought, logical thinking, and tend to have a stimulating affect. Having the right amount of beta waves allows us to focus and complete school or work-based tasks easily. Having too much beta may lead to us experiencing excessive stress and/or anxiety. The higher beta frequencies are associated with high levels of arousal. When you drink caffeine or have another stimulant, your beta activity will naturally increase. Think of these as being very fast brain waves that most people exhibit throughout the day in order to complete conscious tasks such as: critical thinking, writing, reading, and socialization.

Frequency range: 12 Hz to 40 Hz (High)
Too much: Adrenaline, anxiety, high arousal, inability to relax, stress
Too little: ADHD, daydreaming, depression, poor cognition
Optimal: Conscious focus, memory, problem solving
Increase beta waves: Coffee, energy drinks, various stimulants

Alpha Waves

This frequency range bridges the gap between our conscious thinking and subconscious mind. In other words, alpha is the frequency range between beta and theta. It helps us calm down when necessary and promotes feelings of deep relaxation. If we become stressed, a phenomenon called “alpha blocking” may occur which involves excessive beta activity and very little alpha. Essentially the beta waves “block” out the production of alpha because we become too aroused.

Frequency range: 8 Hz to 12 Hz (Moderate)
Too much: Daydreaming, inability to focus, too relaxed
Too little: Anxiety, high stress, insomnia, OCD
Optimal: Relaxation
Increase alpha waves: Alcohol, marijuana, relaxants, some antidepressants

Theta Waves

This particular frequency range is involved in daydreaming and sleep. Theta waves are connected to us experiencing and feeling deep and raw emotions. Too much theta activity may make people prone to bouts of depression and may make them “highly suggestible” based on the fact that they are in a deeply relaxed, semi-hypnotic state. Theta has its benefits of helping improve our intuition, creativity, and makes us feel more natural. It is also involved in restorative sleep. As long as theta isn’t produced in excess during our waking hours, it is a very helpful brain wave range.

Frequency range: 4 Hz to 8 Hz (Slow)
Too much: ADHD, depression, hyperactivity, impulsivity, inattentiveness
Too little: Anxiety, poor emotional awareness, stress
Optimal: Creativity, emotional connection, intuition, relaxation
Increase theta waves: Depressants

Delta Waves

These are the slowest recorded brain waves in human beings. They are found most often in infants as well as young children. As we age, we tend to produce less delta even during deep sleep. They are associated with the deepest levels of relaxation and restorative, healing sleep. They have also been found to be involved in unconscious bodily functions such as regulating heart beat and digestion. Adequate production of delta waves helps us feel completely rejuvenated after we wake up from a good night’s sleep. If there is abnormal delta activity, an individual may experience learning disabilities or have difficulties maintaining conscious awareness (such as in cases of brain injuries).

Frequency range: 0 Hz to 4 Hz (Slowest)
Too much: Brain injuries, learning problems, inability to think, severe ADHD
Too little: Inability to rejuvenate body, inability to revitalize the brain, poor sleep
Optimal: Immune system, natural healing, restorative / deep sleep
Increase delta waves: Depressants, sleep

http://mentalhealthdaily.com/2014/04/15/5-types-of-brain-waves-frequencies-gamma-beta-alpha-theta-delta/
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 05:03pm PT
I have been following the work of Ingo Swann and Hal Putoff since the early 1970s

Way cool, Tom. I would love to have a discussion with you someday face to face. I talk a lot with my hands and facial expressions and I type really slow. I'm not sure how deep I would go here on this wonderful climber's forum. Not my thing.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 05:55pm PT
So, if you have not learned to easily attain a meditative state of serene awareness, then it's just introducing confusion to talk about states of awareness beyond that, and it's a distraction and waste of time thinking about it.

If you do commonly drop into such a state, perhaps several times a day, or even most of the time, then chances are you have been developing some level of perception and understanding of these bands of awareness beyond the basic state of calm awareness.

Some of the ancient peoples observe there to be four worlds of the spirit, separated by veils. The scientists mentioned above would say these correspond with two levels of the subconscious Alpha waves, plus Theta, and Delta...fair enough. (Scientists seem to be fussing around with what they think about Gamma).

These four worlds are leading along by increments towards what has variously been termed The Great Mystery, The Oneness, The Void, Infinite Awareness ...

So from this perspective we have the four worlds:

1. the subconscious
2. the life force that moves in all things
3. the world of the spirit
4. the void
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 06:04pm PT
Werner:

Because every single living entity is nothing but pure consciousness with individuality.

In the material world, the living entity is covered by the material elements and thus thinks it is born and dies.

Only the material coverings go thru these changes.

The living entity itself always remains and transmigrates to different material bodies according to their developed consciousness in their present lives.

The spiritual soul is pure consciousness and is the living entity itself.

Yes
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 06:23pm PT
So long as you are dealing with inputs and information and so forth, you still have one foot - and a big foot - sunk in causative/mechanistic sand.

yes

John, you have very appropriately dealt at length with the difference between the thing itself and the means by which it is described.

Since the world of the spirit is in this world but not of it, how else to describe it other than using the terms of this world?

Whether using text or math or images or computer models, it's all attempts to convey understanding of concepts which are not of this world. People with no shared understanding of the world of the spirit will never grasp what we are trying to convey until waking up to see for themselves.

Once people experience it personally, then any descriptions are somewhat superfluous and more or less like a secret code among those with shared understanding.

Fortunately many people are waking up from the long nightmare of The Matrix.
Largo

Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
Feb 2, 2018 - 06:38pm PT
Just a quick note here - gotta go to Arizona.

For me, levels of awareness are actually levels of consciousness. Awareness is just one phenomenon and and what we experience, by and large, is what consciousness (brain generated) feeds awareness.

I don't see awareness of mind or any of it as "spirit" or separate from anything else. There is no stand-alone phenomenon in reality. Everything is interconnected. In my opinion.
Wayno

Big Wall climber
Seattle, WA
Feb 2, 2018 - 06:42pm PT
O.K., I'm a Meditator. LOL

I'll try to see if I can get what you are saying without being a dick.



Some of the ancient peoples observe there to be

I feel that as good a place to start as any but in at least two of those four worlds, I would bet that they are not the same as today or as these modern times in general. I think this is an important distinction in these matters that is often overlooked, not necessarily by you, Tom.

four worlds of the spirit, separated by veils

Are you equating this with "levels of awareness" alpha, delta, etc,?

So from this perspective we have the four worlds:

At this point , I'm a bit confused. One of the four worlds of spirit is the world of spirits?

Anyway, interesting so far.
zBrown

Ice climber
Feb 2, 2018 - 07:15pm PT
Five card no-peekee

5 Types Of Brain Waves Frequencies: Gamma, Beta, Alpha, Theta, Delta

Very weak Mr. Cochrane. There is certainly more detailed stuff to look at, but (apologies to Bob Dylan) "it ain't goin' nowhere yet.




Spherical Harmonics Reveal Standing EEG Waves and Long-Range Neural Synchronization during Non-REM Sleep

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4916209/

I haven't looked at this in many years, but I would bet there has been no progress, just like machine language "understanding".

I don't "mind" being corrected if indeed there has been any progress.
TomCochrane

Trad climber
Cascade Mountains and Monterey Bay
Topic Author's Reply - Feb 2, 2018 - 07:18pm PT
For me, levels of awareness are actually levels of consciousness. Awareness is just one phenomenon and and what we experience, by and large, is what consciousness (brain generated) feeds awareness.

I don't see awareness of mind or any of it as "spirit" or separate from anything else. There is no stand-alone phenomenon in reality. Everything is interconnected. In my opinion.

Yes, reality is all interconnected as quantum thought wave forms.

No, the brain does not create consciousness....LOL! That's about like a scientist declaring that the automobile creates the driver!

Consciousness creates the mind/brain/body/world as imagery in the mind, and reality only exists as such in the mind.

The brain is a wave-form receiver/decoder. The brain does Fourier transforms of quantum wave-forms (in very narrow limited bandwidths) to create imagery in the mind.

Consciousness is 'aware' of the imagery in the mind and we call that 'reality'. However this 'reality' only exists as imagery in our mind. Our mind consists of holographic thought forms being viewed by our consciousness.

Consciousness exhibits variable levels of awareness regarding this 'reality' generation system.

Ultimately our consciousness is simply a viewpoint within the universal consciousness.

By disengaging our individual consciousness viewpoint from its obsessive viewing of the imagery in our mind (The Matrix) we are able to look over our shoulder, so to speak, and view our connection to the universal consciousness

Edit: I'm thinking that the term 'spirit' is a way of designating the presence of a viewpoint of universal consciousness within the wave forms of our reality, as observed by effects created in the wave forms of that reality
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