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mooch
Trad climber
Tribal Base Camp (Riverkern Annex)
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Dec 14, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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Everybody stand clear.........here comes Jeff's big come back. No wait.......that's the Waaaaahhhhhhmbulance to pick you up for therapy. Richard will be waiting when you're well enough. ;)
Back to what you were saying about the Ohm, Bad. Was looking into that as well. How long have you two been using the Ohm?
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Splater
climber
Grey Matter
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Dec 14, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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It's great to make some routes like these safer,
but for others - I don't think this needs to be a trend.
Many of the routes in the gorge were done Ground Up, not rap bolted,
and the bolts are not spaced to the lowest common denominator.
Years ago, a bolt was added to a GU route on the dilithium crystal, so the FA rightfully chopped the added bolt.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 14, 2017 - 10:47am PT
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Also, the couple in the video make it very clear that the info re. slack, soft catches, etc. are for sport climbing--not trad. It's definitely for trad climbing too.
Even if you're pinned to a hanging belay way off the deck, you do whatever you still can to minimize forces and fall distances, maybe even more-so in importance.
Holy cow fuk yes if you're sitting there over tiny gear with a ledge or a pile of talus not far below.
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 14, 2017 - 11:21am PT
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@Mooch:
We've used the Ohm a few times and are getting better acquainted with it. The instructional vid/info with the device are useful, but a couple of times in the field really bring the ideas home. It's a passive, partial caming device and works a lot like an atc: Once loaded, the device pivots up and the groove bites into the rope. It is critical that the belayer not be directly underneath because a slight angle helps the device to engage. It's important, too, that the clip right after the Ohm be in a direct line with the belayer--i.e. the rope runs straight from belayer, through the Ohm and the next clip. If there a zig or zag, then the leader is going to fight the device as it starts to engage and get an involuntary short-roping. So you need to eye ball the bolt following the Ohm and make sure the line is good. If not, better to skip the Ohm.
I did a little practice fall--I'm chicken--and the Ohm worked great. My wife didn't go flying and felt very comfortable. Lowering is a lot easier, too, for a light belayer. As the leader, if the route isn't too steep, I sometimes have to feed the rope through to overcome some of the Ohm's resistance, which is a little hassle. So far, I'm giving it a thumbs up.
@JLP: According to the research in the videos, adding slack, for instance, does increase forces because the falling climber has more time to accelerate, consequently adding force to the gear--not an issue with bolts but could be for trad pro. Of course, jumping from a belay where you're anchored isn't going to happen, right?
BAd
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Rollover
climber
Gross Vegas
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Dec 14, 2017 - 11:29am PT
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Not that it matters.
Hoping for the best outcome for the fallen climber!
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 14, 2017 - 11:38am PT
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According to the research in the videos, adding slack, for instance, does increase forces because the falling climber has more time to accelerate, consequently adding force to the gear--not an issue with bolts but could be for trad pro. Of course, jumping from a belay where you're anchored isn't going to happen, right? Sorry, I don't have audio, but that's correct and that seemed to be what the video was about, great visuals.
In trad climbing there's almost always a bit of play even in the worst belays to make sure the catch is as short and soft as possible.
Exactly, minimizing the load on gear and distance fallen is even more important in trad climbing. Same exact belay goal, usually even more critical to get it right and often less room to do so.
^^^Hilarious guidebook note - "Ground up" brah. Sprad 5.8 old school madness, what a joke. Screw fixing a few bolts, dynamite that whole wall and start over.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Dec 14, 2017 - 02:46pm PT
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I can only speak from fifty plus years of field experience. Everytime a leader I am belaying has fallen I have immediately braked the fall...okay so far and i suspect I’ll continue in the exact same mode.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:03pm PT
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I held a 75' factor 2 fall once.
I ended up with severe knee damage but the leader was fine.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:10pm PT
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I am with JD.
I am dumb and have never heard of a "soft catch", even with sketchy gear.
It must be a sport thing so you don't mess up your coiffure.
That being said, I wish only the best for the injured climber.
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JLP
Social climber
The internet
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:11pm PT
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Lots of rope drag on those old dad routes.
However, ANAM will quickly show how often gear gets ripped out in trad climbing, it's one of the top causes of injury and death after all the various reasons one might fall in the first place. The tables include all areas and disciplines. If you isolate a mostly trad area like Eldo, it's generally number 2 right after the initial reason for falling.
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:20pm PT
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Bad gear is bad gear.
When someone is leading, and needs slack to move or clip, you give it to him. Is that a soft catch?
Intentionally giving someone "penalty slack" is for people groveling or people you don't like very much.
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Bruce Morris
Trad climber
Soulsbyville, California
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:38pm PT
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A "soft catch" seems like something that is taught in the gyms, but seldom practiced out in the field.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Cali
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Dec 14, 2017 - 03:50pm PT
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If I am falling for more than 10 feet, not only do I not want any extra slack, but I fully expect my belayer to get a handful or two of rope back in so I don't fall as far as I otherwise might. I have done this myself for my leader on numerous occasions and yes, sometimes you get a bit of a burn when the last bit goes out but you just hold onto the rope. It really isn't complicated!
The only exceptions are when your leader is going to hit something that a little slack will 100% get them past then they get that extra slack. I can only think of about twice in 45 years where that has been the case.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Polebridge, Montana
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Dec 14, 2017 - 04:16pm PT
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I can only speak from fifty plus years of field experience. Everytime a leader I am belaying has fallen I have immediately braked the fall...okay so far and i suspect I’ll continue in the exact same mode.
You caught me once Jim on a good whipper, think it was onto the first piece too, maybe a 10 footer. Felt plenty soft to me:)
Arne
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Dec 14, 2017 - 04:20pm PT
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Everytime a leader I am belaying has fallen I have immediately braked the fall...okay so far and i suspect I’ll continue in the exact same mode
Yes, but...
A friend broke her ankle when she fell and her old-time trad partner braked the fall immediately - slamming her feet-first into the wall under the overhang she'd fallen from. If he'd given her some slack, she'd have been fine.
Yes, this was in a climbing gym. But just as climbing gym methods can be dangerous outside, so can trad methods be dangerous inside.
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rwedgee
Ice climber
CA
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Dec 14, 2017 - 04:37pm PT
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A soft catch is essential for preventing injuries to your man labia
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BruceHildenbrand
Social climber
Mountain View/Boulder
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Dec 14, 2017 - 04:47pm PT
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All this "soft" catch versus "hard" catch stuff seems really dependent on the angle of the wall you are climbing. Indoors, it seems like the most interesting climbing is on walls which are overhanging so you have lots of falls where you "slam" into the wall. A "soft" catch might be valuable there.
In outdoor climbing there just aren't that many moderate climbs on overhanging walls so most of the climbing for mere mortals are on vertical or less than vertical walls. Given this fact, I don't think that "soft" versus "hard" catch is really an issue for most of us.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:12pm PT
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I consider myself an expert belayer.... I have never dropped anyone and I have done what was required to keep my leader off of the deck.
The soft vs hard is very misunderstood by most climbers.
Decking on the climb in question, especially when your clipping the 3rd bolt, tells me that the belayer was somewhat at fault.
If I recall correctly, you can stand on a block and be ready to jump down if they blow the clip....it's the belayers responsibility to see a potential "grounder" situation developing and sound the alarm bells and be ready to take life saving action. The leader also needs to be aware of how hi they are in regards to the pro... and to know that they are in a no fall zone and to proceed with extreme caution.
team work is how you stay safe, not mindlessly "going for it" like back home in the cushy gym environment.
I do hope the fallen climber make a total recovery.
and moving or adding a bolt to THAT climb is probability in the best interest of safety. . . . thanks to the local Bishop climbers.
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Caveman
climber
Cumberland Plateau
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:19pm PT
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"I can only speak from fifty plus years of field experience. Everytime a leader I am belaying has fallen I have immediately braked the fall...okay so far and i suspect I’ll continue in the exact same mode."
Had my belayer not given me slack at the right moment I would have a flake of rock as a face ornament!
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 14, 2017 - 05:42pm PT
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Still no one talking about fixing that route just about a device that belongs in the gym. lol
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