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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2017 - 08:56am PT
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Indeed Reilly....rocks have been drilled, chisled and dynamited here since the 1880's.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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"Manufactured climbs" is an interesting question that answers itself for the most part, but for the various meanings of "manufactured."
Gluing on a hold or chipping the rock are two obvious ways of manufacturing, that is, providing holds that weren't there in the first place.
But cleaning out a crack also manufactures holds, and is generally acceptable as is cleaning off loose rock to make the holds "safe."
Wire brushing the lichen and moss off of a route manufactures holds.
Placing bolts where there is no other means of protecting the route is also manufacturing, if we expand the idea to include protection.
And finally, the identification of the route in some form: a written description, a topo, a photo-overlay are required so that the manufactured route is known to the route "consumers."
Given that climbing is largely an artificial activity whose guiding principles are completely arbitrary, it would seem to be difficult, if not impossible, to justify any set of principles as "right."
Doug Robinson wrote a more nuanced description:
Technology is imposed on the land, but technique means conforming to the landscape. They work in opposite ways, one forcing a passage while the other discovers it. The goal of developing technique is to conform to the most improbable landscape by means of the greatest degree of skill and boldness supported by the least equipment.
Great Pacific Iron Works 1975 catalog
This provides at least some guidance without resorting to dogmatic statements.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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The cool experience some people would have who are able to do this long move as is would be much diminished, so that somebody else can do it too. There's not really much difference between that and starting to chip holds everywhere so all the 13s and 14s are doable by 5.10 climbers.
Ed mostly just beat me to it, but...
So if you have a climb that is 800 feet of nice 5.10 but has a short section of 5.14, it is so much better to put it a bolt ladder than chip a few holds?
Or skip the bolt ladder and have a beautiful 5.10 climb that almost never gets climbed...
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Given that climbing is largely an artificial activity whose guiding principles are completely arbitrary, it would seem to be difficult, if not impossible, to justify any set of principles as "right."
That's true, Ed. But taking a position doesn't necessarily mean thinking that you (the collective, you) are right, and strong beliefs don't have to be accompanied by everyone's agreement in action or thought. Deciding how we use the rock should be a process of discussion, and understanding that climbing is an artificial activity with arbitrary principles should be the starting point of that discussion, not the conclusion.
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stevep
Boulder climber
Salt Lake, UT
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I'm certainly not a proponent of manufacturing on natural walls. And what happened in Ouray sounds pretty awful.
But there's a pretty grey line. A lot of the free climbing on El Cap and other places in Yos is on pin-scarred cracks, so technically manufactured. Similar with what was mentioned above relative to bolt ladders...no small number of aid climbs in Yos don't go without those. And some fairly significant cleaning goes on at many crags to make them climbable (Smith and Maple).
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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A short section of A0 never hurt anyone.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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If done on real choss.... I just say whatever, "can I go and chip your rad 13B into a better 10A?"
ON Gods own Granite or some other solid stone. No-Way... I think it is like Stealing from people who can climb better than you.
That example of a long 10 with a 14 crux.... Leave it alone, someday a better climber than you will cruz it.
Up at Shuteye.... I guess Doe and Co had some killer 5.12 something with just one or two moves they couldn't do.... so they rationalized chopping in a few "holds" so it would go at 12 and be a killer long climb....
I call BS.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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If a 5.13 climber feels it is OK to chip on a 5.13 route what stops a 5.8 climber from feeling justified to chip a 5.8 route?
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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What walls were FA'd clean with no hammering(manufacturing)?
What are some of the longer rock climb where the FA was clean(hammer-less) that are 5.9 or harder?
The only thing a free climber should be chipping is teeth in a leader fall or on a frozen protein bar.
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DanaB
climber
CT
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It took a while, but it was inevitable.
The "What's the difference between" argument.
Shortly followed, I'm sure, by the "We've all done it" point of view.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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bolting on gym holds is completly weird. the rest of it is just different shades of gray with a lot of funny arbitrary rules governing them. pin scars are good but deliberate chiseling is bad. sometimes bolts are good, sometimes they are bad. etc. etc. It usually depends more on who commits the act than the actual act....
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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"I went to an area near Palm Springs with Bridwell years ago. It was steep to overhanging pretty featureless granite. Jim had chipped and drilled holds there to create what he referred to as an outdoor climbing gym. The granite, while feature poor, was solid and had never been quarried....what’s the take on that?"
For someone who really helped instill good climbing ethics and standards to a whole new generation of climbers, it's hard to fault what he did in that instance.
It all depends upon the route, the context and the history of the area. If someone added lots of bolts to Bachar Yerian, it would change the entire experience. But then, suppose you were up there and a hold broke; then you quietly chipped a hold that was like the one that broke? I dunno, maybe climbing needs its own Pope.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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I see that as a fairly typical case of a big shot local imposing the rulze on everyone except for himself and his crew..... Do as I say not as I do.......
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 2, 2017 - 05:09pm PT
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Over the years a lot of climbs have been altered, often by well meaning people. Placing and removing pins on former aid routes left ugly pin holes now used for free ascents. Climbing went thru a period where the emphasis to get up a climb by any means was followed by the importance in the style (or means) by which a route was climbed.
Royal Robbins likely placed as many pins as anyone else during the “Golden Age” of Yosemite big wall climbing. Royal was also the major proponent of “clean climbing” when nuts became availble.
I know some will say that rap bolting altered the nature of the rock. Very true in a sense but the bolts don’t change the cracks and features the rock presents to us as a challenge to our skill. A grey area here...the Bacher/Yerian at 11+ presents more of an overall challenge (the mental factor) than a much harder sport climb...but the intrinsic nature of the climb, the holds, cracks and other feature have not been altered. When sport climbing came on the scene it was derided by many but it led to the opening up of vast new areas of rock previously thought to be unclimbable and ushured in an era of rapidly rising free climbing standards.
The segmentation of climbing and the proliferation of climbing gyms have all occurred in the last few decades. The only thing that never changes is the fact that there will be change.
I am an old climber who still tries to answer the bell. I, for the most part, have embraced change. Sport climbing has sharpened my skills and the gear I use is the latest and lightest on the market. Most of all, I enjoy climbing with people young enough to be my grandchildren....their unbridled enthusiasim gives me a little extra steam. I try not to be too dogmatic about this activity that has been the salient part of my adult years....although I am not always successful in this regard.
Thru it all, thru all the changes that I have seen and often embraced, I stand steady in my belief that the forces of nature, not man, creates climbs...man only climbs them. There is a vast amount of rock that has not yet been climbed, hopefully we will use our skill and commitment to climb what is presented to us rather than altering it in an unnatural way to bring it within our scope. Remember, just because you can’t climb it as it stands doesn’t mean that someone else can’t. And if no one ever can....well that just shows where human limitations are.
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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MR E not chiming in on this, I dislike MAN U Fractured and glued routes, no gray area here, bad news.
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Off White
climber
Tenino, WA
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Man, you need a new hobby Jeff.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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While I strive not to be an absolutist of any stripe, I also try to keep relativist arguments from incapacitating my better judgment.
Ed Hartouni said:
Given that climbing is largely an artificial activity whose guiding principles are completely arbitrary, it would seem to be difficult, if not impossible, to justify any set of principles as "right."
^ True, any absolutist risks being a hypocrite.
Then, Dana B responded to Ed:
Deciding how we use the rock should be a process of discussion, and understanding that climbing is an artificial activity with arbitrary principles should be the starting point of that discussion, not the conclusion.
^ Also true, we still have to set standards for ourselves, at some point.
Yes, lots of limestone routes have required tinkering. Yes, the Jardine traverse on The Nose is a travesty. Yes we all drive through tunnels, and so forth and so on. (See: King T, and others.)
 So, casting my perspective into the dialogue, I'll say, in general, manufactured routes on natural rock should be heavily discouraged. It's an art form and thus, a continuum applies: the higher-quality the rock, the less manufacturing should be tolerated, if ever. And generally, even on crap rock, chipping and chiseling should be discouraged .
.................................
But I also have to say, as an ardent realist, RGold’s observation holds plenty of water:
Consensus was what forged the rules of the game in the 60's and 70's, as there was surely no mechanism for enforcing rules. As climbing has diversified and the climber base has expanded, the ability to achieve consensus has declined, and at this point alternate perspectives compete with little expectation of resolution.
Out with the old guard, in with the new. There's not that much precedent for regard of historical perspectives in climbing, not say, much after 15 or 20 years. Just an observation on my part.
And the kids are going to do pretty much whatever they want. Probably most of the stance drilled routes I was involved with will be retro bolted. So it goes. Hopefully, they won't also be chipped or chiseled. But my guess is, the latter won't happen, because they will be found to be too easy to be brought down to anyone's level!
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Off White! Dude, you clearly need some serious reeducation! (Heh). We're coming for you ... Torches in hand ... Canes rasping and scratching at the air ... Except when you scoot up the slope toward the base of your routes, when the cane comes into more serious play for the approach ... And then we'll also need a slurp from your water bottle, prior to an uptick in the hollerin'!!!
And then, thirst satiated, all will be well again.
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WBraun
climber
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How many of you free climbed with pitons only?
Way harder than using cams and nuts.
Aid climbing with pitons was the way back then and nobody was pounding pins in on aid routes with premeditated ideas to force it free.
Chipping and manufacturing a hold/s on natural outdoor rock is just plain forced climbing.
What Jardine did was criminal, an insane selfish idealism and spit in the face of all those before him that risked their skin to free climb without forcing a line.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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For tunnels and aluminum mines vs. climbs that's really apples and oranges. The main reason we have ethics on what you can do to the rock for a climb is to preserve the rock for future climbers, it's not about the environmental impact in the ecological sense.
I stand steady in my belief that the forces of nature, not man, creates climbs...man only climbs them.
This really hits the nail on the head IMO. That's why there's a big difference between manufacturing climbs in a quarry vs. rock in it's natural state.
What you can ethically do in terms of manufacturing a climb could be considered on a case by case basis, but it is a slippery slope once you start saying it's okay (plenty of impossible climbs in the past have now been done and those climbs could've been chipped and brought down to a lower level). So I think "you just don't manufacture climbs" on public natural rock is a good rule/guideline. It's like the don't change a climb without the first ascensionist's blessing rule/guideline. It might not be perfect in all circumstances, but once it's broken where do you draw the line?
P.S. for public land vs. private land: I wish I had a photo of the private boulder near stateline in North Lake Tahoe. There's a 30' or so high blank overhanging boulder with tons of holds installed on it. I'd never dream of doing that to a public rock, but if it was in my yard I sure as hell would have done the same thing.
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