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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Nothing at all jumped out at you, huh?
[He's a bright boy and elaborated right down to cites; it wasn't something he intended to be skimmed...]
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 06:44am PT
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I think one of Kevin's main points, which flies in the face of today's gender equality movement, is that there are indeed differences between males and females, thankfully. That's how we got here and it's required a teamwork of males and females because we each have different strengths (as a whole). And it has come to the point where even saying that is blasphemy. We should be celebrating our differences. I for one don't want to live in a mono-gender world.
Arne
Agreed. Well put Arne.
The sad thing is that stating this in the wrong circles can get you labeled a misogynist. Yet its what my wife and I teach and instill in our daughters. If more people embraced this ethos the world would be a better place.
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Cragar
climber
MSLA - MT
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Aug 10, 2017 - 08:26am PT
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Larry Nelson for the win! ...and what Arne said
The only things I learned from this thread...way to go Flathead!!!
Hey, are you 2 smoked out up there? It's getting worse here by the day and they are looking to evacuate SeeleyLk due to smoke, good luck with that!
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Marlow
Sport climber
OSLO
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Aug 10, 2017 - 08:41am PT
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If, when a girl performs at a high level,
your mind always finds five reasons
why it isn't as impressive
as when a boy performs at a high level...
I tell you, man...
your mind has got a problem...
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 10, 2017 - 09:15am PT
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And the reason we all should fight gender bias is that so they don't have to lead a life of verbal abuse by old has-been windbags of any kind so they can be empowered to live the life of their choosing and succeed.
^^^ this!! Applied to both men and women, of course.
There are biological differences between the genders. That doesn't mean you can tack that sentence at the end of an offensive argument and automatically shut down any disagreement.
Also, daaaaamn, Hazel! She's rad.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 09:57am PT
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What part of my argument do you find offensive?
As I and others pointed out, in this thread, the first thing you managed to do is find many different ways to belittle Hazel Findlays F.A. (she toproped it first; stole beta from a guy; has small fingers that made it possible for her to do it when men failed; 13D R is not cutting edge).
If I had put up this same post, with a guy doing the FA, think about whether you would have said any of those things.
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Matt's
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 10, 2017 - 10:32am PT
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Don't forget, Matt, this is all in the context of you attempting to taunt me in the OP about my now famous opinion that female climbers cannot outperform male climbers across the climbing spectrum due to biological differences btw the sexes.
In previous threads, you had made the point that women don't do FAs and don't do scary/dangerous climbs. I thought that this climb was a nice counter-point.
Didn't say she toproped it first, that she "stole" beta from her partner, or that it was possible for her to do because of small fingers. Only suggested that those were possible advantages she had as a 5'2" female climbing with a guy who had already worked the route.
You insinuated all those things to belittle her achievement. If a guy had done the FA, you would have never insinuated those things.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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Aug 10, 2017 - 10:38am PT
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Only suggested that those were possible advantages she had as a 5'2" female climbing with a guy who had already worked the route
I see, now she has advantages because of being small and likely small fingers.
From your previous discourse I would have thought you were making an argument that testosterone and pure on "maleness" should have trumped any female physique advantage. You present no rational for why some male stud climber didn't crush it first.
Having a reasoned, intelligent, and robust discussion with you, well at a minimum requires the first two....not just being a bull dog with a bone. Yup, an ad hominen attack. Suck it up buttercup....your testosterone fuled (or Mr Blue supplement) manhood should be able to take it.
Susan
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 10, 2017 - 11:06am PT
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I see, now she has advantages because of being small and likely small fingers.
It's funny, isn't it? Whenever amazing accomplishments by women are presented, Kevin's response is basically, "it's not a fair comparison, because women have all these genetic advantages that make them better at climbing."
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kunlun_shan
Mountain climber
SF, CA
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Aug 10, 2017 - 11:09am PT
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Whenever amazing accomplishments by women are presented, Kevin's response is basically, "it's not a fair comparison, because women have all these genetic advantages that make them better at climbing."
Warbler is trapped in his own personal "echo chamber" ;-)
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Aug 10, 2017 - 11:10am PT
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A misogynist is a man who hates women...
as much as women hate each other.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 10, 2017 - 11:18am PT
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A misogynist is a man who hates women...
as much as women hate each other.
Women hating women is just another example of culturally-ingrained misogyny. Women are very supportive and loving to one another when they aren't conditioned to think their worth is based on their unique value to men.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 10, 2017 - 11:30am PT
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This jumped out at me...
Really? That's what jumped out at you first? Don't know whether to shake my head or just say wow. That's some fine selective reading you're doing there.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 11:56am PT
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Hey Kev,
Maybe you can tell us more about the FFA of the Nose and how that wasn't "cutting edge"?
Hey Kingtut I'll let Kevin answer for himself, but I don't think he is trying to persuade anybody that "No woman has ever been better than any man or all men" in anything. Nor would he (in my opinion) think that Lynne's historic FFA on the Nose wasn't cutting edge. From reading his posts over the past months it seems like he's simply making the point that women and men are not equal....and that hard core feminism is off base in its claims and motive. Or something like that. I'm sure he'd agree that what Lynne did on the Nose was outrageous and top notch and better than any man on the planet at the time. But it still didn't make "women" better than "men."
Her ascent was an outlier in the female community. My 14 year old son is faster than the fastest female swimmer in the world, Katie Ledecky. Women do rad things, and are better than many men in many things. But they are DIFFERENT. And when it comes to climbing and swimming and being a NAVY SEAL and weightlifting and track and field, MOST WOMEN ARE NOT AS STRONG OR AS EQUAL OR ACCOMPLISHED AS MOST MEN. Its no big deal. Stating that does not make somebody a misogynist. I dunno....you guys just keep spinning in circles with these statements and claims and jabs. Its entertaining but it would be cool if yall took the time to actually listen to each-other's points in an educated and thoughtful way. This is a good conversation to have when people listen to each other.
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
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The parts that are entirely misogynistic are where he attempts to connect gender biology to organizational role suitability, fitness, behavior and performance within the tech world.
P.S. My ex has been eating morons like this alive for decades by giving them enough rope to thoroughly pontificate on their technical brilliance all the while condescending to the women in the room at which point she would begin a very public, humiliating and possibly career-ending castration. Crikey, insufferable f*#ks like this are unfortunately a dime a dozen in tech.
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micronut
Trad climber
Fresno/Clovis, ca
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:17pm PT
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^^^^^^
Roger that. I agree. That would be different.
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cat t.
climber
california
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:18pm PT
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From reading his posts over the past months it seems like he's simply making the point that women and men are not equal....and that hard core feminism is off base in its claims and motive.
The initial post that drew me into this years-long Supertopo Gender War was as follows:
To expand on my perspective that women are responsible for the explosion in climbing's popularity, I think an increase in female participation has all but tamed the wild beast that climbing was 50 years ago when I started climbing mountains.
Sure that beast is alive and well where climbers endeavor to hunt it down, but the animal that the vast majority of today's climbers want to hang out with is more of a finicky pussy cat, or a tail wagging, leg humping pup.
Also tamed is the climbing media, ST included. Balls and boldness are no longer an integral part of the game, and the climbing media cowers consistently at the growling and barking dogs of feminism. The entities that profit from climbing, more than ever, have to keep women happy, and that requires good manners.
Women may not be on the front lines where raising the standard of climbing goes, but they're first in line where money and climbing meet.
I take no offense at the assertion that men and women are different. I take no offense at the assertion that the average man is stronger than the average woman, though it is always worth noting that interacting with humans is about individuals, not averages. What bothers me, rather, is this assertion that women are inherently less bold, less brave, and less capable of pushing boundaries than men (in climbing and in every other aspect of life). Kevin explicitly stated this as his belief in previous threads. Though he has softened his rhetoric slightly, I (and probably others) still hear that implicit accusation (that women cannot be brave) in all of his comments about women and climbing. I suppose I could ask directly: Kevin, have we changed your mind? Will you acknowledge this: women may be, on average, fatter and slower and more likely to criticize themselves, but they are just as capable of boldly tackling challenges...?
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Larry Nelson
Social climber
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Aug 10, 2017 - 12:25pm PT
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rbord posted
That's cool. She showed the men that she was more mentally able to climb than they were! Mental strength is frequently far more important than physical strength, and as many or more of the mentally strongest people I've ever known were women.
Women novice climbers often perform better than men, because the guys pull up or hang on their arms more, whereas the ladies intuitively balance on their feet.
Good points by cat t AND The Warbler.
Edit; A friend just sent me this you tube.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
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