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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Jun 30, 2017 - 12:15pm PT
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Go stand next to donini, Kev.
HFS comment from you? Tsk tsk. :0)
I've loved lurking on this discussion.
Sh#t like this needs to be aired, for sure.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Jun 30, 2017 - 12:50pm PT
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In my mind, a person's actions and demeanor matter much more than their clothing if they want to be taken seriously as a climber. As long as a person has the gear they need, doesn't whine on the approach or at uncomfortable belay stations or when the sun gets too hot or when it might or does rain or when you run our of food or water or when you lose some skin or blood... basically a person who rolls with the punches and catches you when you fall, what more can you ask for? What the heck does clothing have to do with it?
If my partner is an attractive lady in skimpy clothes, I can outwardly pretend for civility, but I won't deny my internal biological reaction. That said, it would not diminish me taking the person seriously as a climber at all. That is a totally separate thing. BUT... it might enter in the calculus how my wife would react to it and make me want to avoid jealousy issues. So a person who dresses in a sexually provocative way might consider how that impacts their ability to find experienced partners. If you want to climb while meeting active singles, sure be provocative. If you really want to find a solid climbing partner, consider what are the potential concerns for your partner who might be in a relationship that is not immune to jealousy, and act in a way to ameliorate those concerns if you really just want to climb without limiting your partner choices.
I have no issues at all with people expressing themselves in whatever way they want. We should all have the freedom to be who we want to be. While we choose what we are, we can't force how other people react to that. We can try publicly shaming people to act differently, to pretend that jealousy is not a potential factor in life, and maybe in the long term this is a necessary phase of creating real societal change. I don't know. But in the short term, this just creates a bigger gap between reactions that people publicly display versus what is really going on inside. Climbing relationships, by the nature of the activity, have a tendency to become intimate (in the sense of trust and closeness and sharing- not talking about sex here). My guess is that many marriages, even those characterized by happiness and security and trust, would be challenged by an attractive climbing partner of the opposite sex who develops that type of intimacy with their spouse. It's not impossible, just an extra challenge that many people will strive to avoid.
So the irony here is that by dressing in a way that can be construed as sexually suggestive, a female climber would potentially turn off many potentially good partners for them. Dudes who have been climbing for years and have their sh!t together, who are in relationships and not looking for another sexual partner but are wary of a spousal reaction. That leaves potential partners as females, gay dudes, or single guys who might be on the prowl for sexual signals as well as a climbing partner.
Does this way of thinking make me pragmatic or a caveman? Pragmatic caveman? I like to think I am enlightened about my own behavior, but I won't pretend that we all live on some elevated plane.
p.s. My argument passes the sniff test for me personally if I reverse the sexes... hot young dude climbing with a married lady should not be strutting around in speedos with oiled up shaved chest. Is taking the shirt off crossing the line? Depends on the weather and type of climbing and the personality of the married lady and her spouse. Just be considerate of those you want to associate with.
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Largo
Sport climber
The Big Wide Open Face
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Jun 30, 2017 - 01:26pm PT
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"While we choose what we are, we can't force how other people react to that. We can try publicly shaming people to act differently, to pretend that jealousy is not a potential factor in life, and maybe in the long term this is a necessary phase of creating real societal change. I don't know. But in the short term, this just creates a bigger gap between reactions that people publicly display versus what is really going on inside."
Keenly observed. Note that once a person comes from an activist stance, they often give themselves full liberty to rant about everyone "out there," while disclosing nothing about "what is going on inside." Why this is worth mentioning is that what's prowling inside often fuels the activism - and for damn good reason.
If activists would disclose the inside, their message would carry much more weight then the disembodied rant.
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drF
Trad climber
usa
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Jun 30, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
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Wax-on Wax-off
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Jun 30, 2017 - 08:45pm PT
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^^^^ Hard to discount a gud colonic.
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Andy KP
climber
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We once had to wait for the local secret Army testing base to f*#k up in order to find out who was crazy, who would follow them, but now all we need is the internet. Who's coming out into the mist with me?
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WyoRockMan
climber
Grizzlyville, WY
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Wax-on Wax-off
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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People engage with Hartouni because he's willing to indulge the ridiculous amount of bullshit that gets tossed around here, and still write lengthy and serious replies. His input is valued because it is thoughtful, clear, measured, and intelligent.
I also can't believe I've been evoked in this thread, but I don't have any delusion that that makes the thread about me.
If I my posts here are indeed "thoughtful, clear, measured, and intelligent" it is because I try to read the conversation carefully and craft a response I think is appropriate. I would not usually post to this thread but it seems I've been invited to.
I know both sycorax and Largo in real life, and I would not mistake their writing here as a characterization of their more complex ideas on various issues, they both respond with styles intended to make their points, and I take them as a starting point for thinking. And while I might initially take their posts personally, I do move beyond that initial reaction and try to parse out the issues they are raising in their responses.
In this same way, I read Erin Monahan's blog post. Needless to say, I am not a woman, and I don't experience the world the way a woman does. So I take seriously the blog's argument, and perhaps one of the primary points is "just who decides what makes a serious climber?"
Warbler's been all over this on other threads, he makes the orthodox case that men and women are different and that the "innate" ability of men make them serious, while women, lacking that "innate" ability do not measure up and are not serious. It will be pointed out by Warbler that "innate" in this case has to do with some physical attribute, and one that correlates poorly with elite climbing ability, however, it is based on his considered opinion from personal experience garnered over years of climbing.
Warbler is down right upset when this opinion is questioned and will fight this battle whenever it comes up (as it has on this thread, again).
However, I would suggest to Warbler and others arguing from this same vantage point that women like Erin, sycorax and quite a number of others who post here were equally upset when their experience, over years, is dismissed as "not relevant" to the discussion because they obviously have a biased point of view, or they are not being "genuine," or have not confessed some inner conflict that actually drives them. Largo writes from his experience, which is biased, and I haven't asked him to disclose all of the skeletons he has in his closets.
While climbing accomplishment may be offered as an "objective" measure, it is quite clear that such a measure is far from "objective." Lynne Hill's free climb on The Nose did not receive nearly the attention that it should have, it stands as an amazing climbing feat, and closed the door on the "Golden Era" of climbing, which started with the first ascent of The Nose.
It was amazing to hear the stories of the women who attended the 2014 Oakdale's Climbers' Festival. And it was equally dispiriting that these stories had been largely untold in the larger climbing community.
http://www.supertopo.com/climbers-forum/2386489/Oakdale-Climbers-Festival-2014-A-Womans-Reach
Certainly this was as serious as anything I'd heard about climbing, Warbler's exploits included.
I don't have much to add to the "politics" of this thread, I like to go out climbing, and I hope that my partners, men and women, like to go out climbing with me, sometimes for fun, sometimes for serious adventures where I depend on them for their abilities, their skills, and their desire to climb. I don't much worry about what they will wear, it seems their personal choice to make, they are serious climbers and I trust their judgments.
But I would ask that you seriously consider these voices that have not been heard, and that you not discount their experiences. Instead try to see what the point is, one that is very different from your own (and I mean mostly to the white guys who are reading this) and make some space in this activity that we all are so passionate about for those different voices, and in that effort make it much better than it is now for all who would pursue it, and allow those amazing accomplishments that will come from that by the women and men who will perform them.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 3, 2017 - 10:56pm PT
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There is such a thing in 2017 as clickbait titles that generate interest to drive website traffic.
That being said, this was an offhand comment at a campfire a year ago (LOCKER ROOM TALK LOL) with silly personal jabs based on some pretty far stretching assumptions about a real life person, and like another one or two, who otherwise seem pretty a'ight.
Despite all the legitimate points on either end, the emotional arguments on display and the inevitable descent into madness is a specticle to partake and enjoy for some of us on the internet.
And that's pretty neat.
Carry on.
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perswig
climber
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Life's just a big Rorschach test...
Dale
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c wilmot
climber
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This is third wave feminist rhetoric targeting a new demographic.
It's a played out argument
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Bad Climber
Trad climber
The Lawless Border Regions
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Another angle on this discussion-and I don't think it's been mentioned yet-is the pure animal behavior aspect of dress, actions, etc., which apply to both males and females, of course. If you haven't already done so, read Desmond Morris' The Naked Ape, which is a zoologist's take on human behavior. Dressing, especially something like "booty shorts," is a form of primate signaling. Men show off, flex, go for the big moves, try to help the "little ladies" on their proj's, etc., etc. It is impossible to argue from a utilitarian aspect that booty shorts are required to climb hard. So what are we left with? It's a style choice, and one that sends a signal. What men do with that signal is at the crux of the matter. We can chill the eff out, show women respect, and appreciate the view discreetly, or we can degenerate in our responses. On the other end of the spectrum are cultures that refuse to allow such displays. Welcome the Taliban, Saudi Arabia, et al. Now, cranking hard in a burka, that would be difficult!
BAd
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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I've climbed a lot in Sweden and a bit in Norway. Admittedly, it was a while ago, but I distinctly recall a very harmonious atmosphere. It takes two to tango, but I also don't recall any 'booty shorts'. The prevailing insectivore population governed that.
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wbw
Trad climber
'cross the great divide
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While climbing accomplishment may be offered as an "objective" measure, it is quite clear that such a measure is far from "objective." Lynne Hill's free climb on The Nose did not receive nearly the attention that it should have, it stands as an amazing climbing feat
I don't know about that Ed. Had Lynn's climb occurred today, the general public would know more about it due to the internet, but amongst climbers that I know, I think most would say Lynn's freeing of the Nose is one of the most significant accomplishments ever. Given the time, how much more attention do you think she should have received? (Not that I wouldn't want to see her get a multi-year million-dollar contract, but does any climber get that level of attention?)
Based on her blog, I would say that EM does not come across as a feminist. I had a similar conversation with a twenty-something woman recently, who tried to convince me how oppressed all women are by men (conveniently forgetting her own Ivy League education and the fact that she has been so privileged her entire life that making the case that she has been oppressed by anyone is a real stretch).
For some random reason I'm getting nightmare flashbacks of the Hildebeast campaign, and her failed claim that she somehow represented oppressed people. Now that is something really worth barfing about, EM.
Living and working in Boulder, it's pretty scary how many men-hating women there are that call themselves feminists. I've been told the latest Wonder Woman clearly shows the inmate strength of women in a positive way, while other films that have a female lead in short-shorts are just men turning women into sexualized objects. I'm still trying to figure out the difference, but my sense is it has more to do with the gender of the director of Wonder Woman than anything else.
I'll run a guess here that EM is more about some kind of unresolved issue she has with her father than about being a feminist.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Testosterone certainly bulks up muscle mass, and provides additional strength, but climbing isn't so one dimensional, and many many climbing programs focus on specific attributes like hand and forearm strength and endurance and strength-to-weight ratios, but also on building skills, including judgements made executing activities.
A recent NYTimes article pointed out that "Neuroscientists are uncovering evidence suggesting that when men take testosterone, they make more impulsive — and often faulty — decisions." So there's a bit more science to add into the mix.
Decision making is an important part of climbing, and here we have research indicating that testosterone might not help, in fact it might be detrimental. How do you weigh the pros and cons of testosterone to climbing ability and achievement? I don't think there is much science on that (and what science there is does not indicate that overall muscle mass is a positive for elite climbers).
As for "objective tests" it will be interesting to see how the Olympic competitions are set up, and particularly the composition of the committees that decide what events are fielded, and how those events are actually executed and how the performances are judged. Committees consisting of a cross section of the competing demographic (let's assume these events are combined men and women) would be the most effective, assuming that the committee decisions represent the consensus view.
The above comments:
Life's just a big Rorschach test...
This is third wave feminist rhetoric...
...pure animal behavior...
I've climbed a lot in Sweden and a bit in Norway. Admittedly, it was a while ago, but I distinctly recall a very harmonious atmosphere.
...conveniently forgetting her own Ivy League education and the fact that she has been so privileged her entire life that making the case that she has been oppressed by anyone is a real stretch...
For some random reason I'm getting nightmare flashbacks of the Hildebeast campaign...it's pretty scary how many men-hating women there are that call themselves feminists... I'll run a guess here that EM is more about some kind of unresolved issue she has with her father than about being a feminist.
regard the degree of seriousness with which we should take the arguments of Monahan's blog post, they do not attempt to discuss, in anyway, the points she is making.
Every comment above essentially dismisses Monahan's criticism, calling into question the validity of that criticism. These comments come from a very narrow slice of participants in climbing. There is every reason to believe that these comments present as biased a view as they claim is Monhan's.
Comments like Wright’s that admonish women for their choice of clothing, and films where women are framed as bimbos leave no question as to whether or not our slice of climbing life is untouched by sexism. When the same tired narratives are told, the same flippant voices are heard, the same (usually white male) bodies are in action, a great portion of our community is ignored and silenced. Pro-climbers or not, we are all responsible for shaping safe spaces for our community. Too often, the emotional labor of educating our community to the reality of racism and sexism falls on the shoulders of the most marginalized. This can be a very heavy burden. All of the rhetorical aversions and desperate rationalizations that people often throw at women for standing up for their autonomous space gets exhausting. The industry is stagnate and slow to real change because the poster boys of climbing take up the majority of the space. The question is, are they willing to correct themselves and be advocates for women and minorities taking up more space?
Many women have said, repeatedly, that they feel marginalized by men in climbing, and in some cases feel unsafe because of unwelcome advances not knowing what the outcome of those advances will be, I take that seriously.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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That's one take, but not a complete picture.
Taking a risk using the faulty notion that you are going to "beat the odds" because you have false confidence in your ability doesn't lead to climbing accomplishment.
While we have many stories of people who have "beat the odds" we tend not to hear much about those that didn't, in spite of their confidence, except on the occasion that the outcome is tragic. Then we usually attribute the tragedy to being an "accident" rather than a failure of judgment brought on by over confidence.
The balancing of risk has at least two parts to it: the identification of the consequences, and the likelihood of success. In general, climbers try to stack the deck in their favor and engage in activities to greatly increase the likelihood of success especially when the consequences could be fatal, or grievously injurious.
I think the issue is tremendously more complex than your simple representation.
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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WTF?
Climbing is no longer the last refuge of white scoundrels?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Good judgement and climbing - the gold standard of oxymorons.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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I would agree with your premise in regards to extreme mountaineering Kevin...rock climbing however is a different matter. Being relatively free from objective danger and altitude restraints rock climbing is as safe as you wish to make it.
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SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
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From lack of drive to lack of clothes.
Susan
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