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bvb
Social climber
flagstaff arizona
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Apr 26, 2017 - 12:54am PT
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I learned the hard way that sometimes the best move is to say nothing, to simply keep it to yourself. I know the impulse to share such an exciting and unusual discovery is overpowering, but the moment you let someome else in on your discovery, a sort of countdown starts and it becomes a simple matter of time before someone strip mines the place -- either a so-called "legitimate" group of government site vandals with their degrees and academic training and Federal funding and permits, or it's old folks like us thinking that the gorgeous pot sitting there would look great on the fireplace mantle, or -- this is the worse case scenario -- a Troop of Utah Boy Scouts stumbles onto it and it's game over.
It took me about a year of getting burned by Friends who would go back and loot to realise that finding a beautiful point, or a pot, or a ladle, and thier moral compass goes haywire. And then there were Cultural Resources staff who would go back (without saying a single f*#king word to me) to catalog, collect and remove all the artifacts -- well, at the end of the day that the only folks you could count on were freinds who had no idea how to get back to the spot -- just no way to find it on their own.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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Apr 26, 2017 - 06:10am PT
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But Q, you have already shared info.
And if one of those people tells another person . . . and so on.
If you can keep it on the low, good for you. But I think the site has been exposed to several people, although perhaps only one person. Please continue to document as much as you are able to do so.
I'd be concerned about securing the area, but the local people-—the descendants, if you will—should have first knowledge and first say about what happens there, I'd think. If you've read 1491, you know that entire cultural communities were decimated by early Europeans, whether through diseases or warfare. So the locals may not be direct descendants, but they deserve to have some say in this. And it may be that they are happy if you never speak of this place again.
If you are using LIDAR, then you may be an investigative sort of person anyway, so you can map and document pretty well. Best of luck to you in your preservation efforts.
ff
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Nick Danger
Ice climber
Arvada, CO
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Apr 26, 2017 - 07:17am PT
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Regarding bvb's story above, I recall seeing incredibly well preserved early uranium prospecting and mining camps and workings from the 1950's, with magazines, dishes, and utensils still laid out on tables, even glass windows still intact. I just marveled at these finds. When I went back two or three decades later these wonderful finds had just been stripped bare. If I am participating on a Federal project I take photos and notes and do due diligence insofar as my professional colleagues are concerned. If I am out on my own I still take the photos, but don't really tell anyone else. In a way, it's sad to acknowledge this level of distrust in my fellow citizens. That being said, I actually understand the desire to collect a talisman from a prior era, it seems like a very human thing to do. I actually do the same when it comes to some particularly wonderful river rounded rock that I collect on almost every river trip. Somehow, though, I feel the river is OK with that.
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Tobia
Social climber
Denial
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Apr 26, 2017 - 09:32am PT
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When I was in the logging business in the 90's we cut a tract of land that was part of a large family estate, that had holdings across the state.
In the middle of the tract there was a small cluster of acres that had never been cut since the land was used for growing cotton, which would give the trees approximately 50-60 years of growth. There were no existing roads or signs of such until we cut them, just an old gate.
In the heart of the tract was a an old house, not very large (less than a 1000 sq ft),but well preserved. The roof, windows and doors were all intact. Large pines and hardwoods hid the house and until the tree harvesting machine operators discovered it.
The door didn't have a lock and an irrepressible curiosity made me go inside. The other guys on the crew didn't have the least bit of interest in it. It was obviously untouched in the decades since it was abandoned. It looked as if the occupants left one day with every intention of returning, but didn't.
It had a beautiful ornate wood burning stove and oven, ice box and a pantry full of canned and jarred foods. An old depression era telephone was mounted on the wall, the bedrooms were furnished and still had linen on them. Newspapers, a Sears and Roebuck Catalog and other printed items of the day were right where they had been the last time someone looked at them.
It was hard to leave a treasure trove of antiquities in place, especially for someone like myself who loves that sort of thing, but that is what I did. When the timber company representatives came to check on their procurement and our progress, I tried to learn something about the landowners, but there wasn't much information shared, except the fact that the family had been in a estate dispute for decades and the cutting of the timber was about all that had been agreed on in many years.
We left the trees near the house and the rest of the land was replanted in pines. Our entrance to the tract was blocked with a large pile of pine and hardwood limbs. In the 20+ years since, much of the land has been parceled out. Some developed, but the larger portion is still covered in trees. I never learned what became of the house and all its belongings, but I suspect it was all looted.
Using Google Earth and the historical imagery I can see the old house site and in the current imagery, no building.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 26, 2017 - 09:42am PT
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Found this little house last week. I looked in on the current inhabitants and probably contracted Hanta. Serves me right for sticking my nose where it don't belong.
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ionlyski
Trad climber
Kalispell, Montana
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Apr 26, 2017 - 11:21am PT
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Tobia, fantastic write up! That was a very cool find. The old cabins are my favorite ones but never heard of one that well preserved.
Arne
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StahlBro
Trad climber
San Diego, CA
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Apr 26, 2017 - 01:44pm PT
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Shall remain anonymous...
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 16, 2017 - 08:30pm PT
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I'm still torn on how to handle it. The drug guys are for real. My friend was just shot several times sitting in his office in western HN. He was supposed to be with me on the last trip when this occurred. He is going to be okay! Being a scientist nonsense makes no sense to me.
Like i stated the situation is tricky. If you are inclined, please pray for my friend.
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thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
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May 16, 2017 - 08:34pm PT
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Right on BVB about the magic of navigationally challenged adventure partners. Right f*#kin' on.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 17, 2017 - 05:30am PT
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Q-Ball, prayers certainly on the way to you and your friend. I'm glad you are protecting the information about this site. A friend and fellow archaeologist and I discovered a significant site at the confluence of two drainages (this was about 40 years ago) and just walking over the site, we discovered such an assortment of artifacts that we decided we needed to back off until we could get an adequate research team out there. So we did no excavations, only some photos and field drawings of surface finds. Because we were very busy with two other, earlier (archaic) sites, we did not get back to those field notes for about ten years. The site was still absolutely pristine in its remote location.
Maybe time will be kind and no one will invade your Honduran site for a long while. It has been sitting there for some time, apparently undisturbed. By then, later on, there may be better technology, field techniques, and an adequate crew to carefully explore and preserve the site, if that is called for. But I think we all must accept that people go everywhere, love finding things, and enjoy exploring sites, taking an artifact for a souvenir, and telling friends about their finds. So for now, the best you may be able to do is survey, record, and preserve. Good luck to you.
I hope things stay peaceful and that your friend recovers completely from the violence that seems to erupt far too often between humans. I hope that whatever you decide—and what others decide—that no more violence comes into your or your friends' lives. Nothing is worth losing life. Well, maybe a few things, but not archaeological sites or artifacts, Indiana Jones notwithstanding. :)
Thank you for sharing your wonder and enthusiasm about your remarkable find. I do hope it works out well.
feralfae
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 07:50am PT
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Feralfae, thank you for the kind words and prayers for my friend.
I'm definitely guilty of picking up souvenirs in my corn fields after being disked/plowed. You seem like A very knowledgeable person, hell, I will walk you to it! It is a bitch of a walk/swim though! Thanks again for your kind words and thoughts.
Qball
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Crazy Bat
Sport climber
Birmingham, AL & Seweanee, TN
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May 17, 2017 - 11:08am PT
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Do not get in a hurry. I know a couple of guys who found a cave full of mud glyphs. They sat on the discovery for 8 years before they found an archeologist they felt had the right background and morals. The cave was gated shortly thereafter. I was lucky enough to tour it. Very very fragile stuff which opened up our eyes to the use of caves by pre columbians in our area. They absolutly did the right thing by not getting in a hurry.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 17, 2017 - 12:56pm PT
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Crazy bat, thanks for your advice.
Funny story about mud glyphs ...growing up in rural Tennessee my mother always warned me not to go in a cave on a near by farm. That only made me more curious and of course I crawled in it. After getting about one mile back I was looking at mud glyphs and then noticed my mother's name next to them scratched on the wall! Ha!
This cave is now gated and I also found a population of endangered cave salamanders.
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feralfae
Boulder climber
in the midst of a metaphysical mystery
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May 18, 2017 - 07:56pm PT
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Q-Ball, love that you found the salamander.
Thank you for the nod on visiting the site. I don't know that area, but it would be lovely to go if I thought I'd not be a whining, dragging along at the back of the party sort of person. My broken tibia needs more healing right now, and at 70, I am more careful of setting off in real adventures. I would be totally embarrassed if I needed a rescue.
Thank you.
Yes, be patient. Things will work out with your wonderful site.
Kind regards,
ff
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2017 - 12:06pm PT
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Timid top rope,
My friend is a Mexican biologist we hired to run our Scarlet Macaw reintroduction efforts throughout HN. There was jealousy from others about this young guy showing up and becoming there boss. In HN if you piss someone off they just shoot you.
The shooter has been arrested but we are still sorting out who hired him. Always interesting stuff going on down there.
http://gardenandgun.com/feature/the-birdman-of-honduras/ Article about some of our Macaw work in HN.
Qball
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - May 22, 2017 - 04:06pm PT
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Feralfae,
Wishing for you to heal up quick! A guy I correspond with in HN told me, "I'm too old to walk those mountains, so I use a helicopter now". Ha! Made me laugh. Sending healing thoughts to you.
Qball
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 25, 2017 - 08:38am PT
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My friend that was shot up is doing great! We just had a new release of 23 scarlet macaws on an island off the coast... And a a few yellow lored amazons. The national bird of HN is flying wild again!!!
Edit- I decided to keep my secret valleys secret. I don't trust the Nat Geo guys.
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Q- Ball
Mountain climber
but to scared to climb them anymore
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 2, 2018 - 10:16am PT
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Just got word of a meeting in DC that potentially several million bucks has been raised to protect this region. My secret rivers may not be secret much longer, but it will be good for the jungle...I think...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Good work! Mixed blessings, huh, Q? I wouldn’t trust Nat Geo either, just another corporation.
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