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Greg Barnes
climber
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Bluering, try to listen a bit. I’m trying to help.
Do you listen to talk shows? Watch Fox? Talk with other folks who do?
It’s not your fault, but you have been brainwashed by rich fat cats who’ve spent millions and millions over the last few decades building up right wing entertainment media. They’ve created a large group of people who are brainwashed - brainwashed enough to actually vote to lower their own wages! Vote to cut good quality education for their OWN kids. Kids that will then grow up less able to defend themselves from being brainwashed.
Is big government in California bloated and inefficient? Sure. Needs to be trimmed - definitely.
Do you want your kids swimming in toxic metal sludge? Nah…probably not. The big companies that fund the right wing media would just love to dump toxic sludge wherever and not have to pay anyone who gets poisoned.
Maybe small companies should be able to dump toxic sludge? Or maybe some not-all-that toxic junk? Maybe, maybe not - probably depends on the specifics. Maybe a mom-and-pop mechanic shop should be able to dump some carcinogen that’s not THAT bad in the sewer, but not dump some really nasty stuff. I’m not joking - maybe they should since it’s a tiny quantity and a big company would dump way the heck more. But it would depend on the exact chemical and how much, and where it would run off, and how it would enter our swimming creek or food supply.
Some regulation - and enforcement - we can probably all agree on. I bet we can also all agree that CA state government is bloated and wasteful in many areas - maybe not as wasteful as the Pentagon, but maybe even worse in some cases. I bet we could all get together, look at specifics, and cut out a lot of waste.
Same with the Pentagon, but of course that is “red state” big government, so maybe instead we should just pay them trillions more without any oversight? You see how ridiculous this kind of thinking is?
I bet we could also all get together, look at specifics, and find out that we really need to boost government spending on education, and that teacher salaries ought to be higher than that of the garbageman.
But there is no “all of us” anymore - there is Red and Blue, CREATED by rich fat cats and their entertainment industry.
Who loses? All of us. Because there is no “all” anymore in people’s minds. There is Red and Blue. By design. We blame each other. Why? We’re told to.
Everyone is at fault. But you’re kidding yourself if you don’t realize that red folks are more susceptible, simply because the entire culture revolves around right wing media which has been specifically engineered over only a few decades to brainwash folks. For all the whining about a “liberal media”, it is Red folks who are under far more direct control of the elites. That wasn’t the case only a few decades ago.
Think about this bluering - when you start these threads, you are parroting ELITE propaganda. Just because the elites you are parroting are those who own big oil and other industries doesn’t mean that they’re not billionaires. They want us to blame people, not systems. “Liberals”, not big industry and government (which any honest person realizes are so interconnected that they can’t be separated).
How about a United States, not red and blue? United is not good for big industry bottom lines - we might tax and regulate them. United is not good for bloated big government - we may cut and control it. United is not good for CEOs making hundreds of millions - if we’re united they’ll make a tiny fraction of that.
First step? Unite. I’d tie in with you any day, go explore crags, have the kids play together. I don’t “blame” you even though I’m told to. I know plenty of “red state”, “independent”, and “blue state” folks, and I notice that everyone tends to agree more and more when we get more into the specifics and details of any particular issue.
It’s the JOB of thousands (millions?) of folks to keep us separate. Separate and WEAK. Both political parties win when we polarize. They lose when we work together - in fact if we do both might disappear entirely.
We can all tie in together and climb - maybe we should try it off the rock too.
It’s a lot of work though. Get into the specifics and it’ll be way harder than spouting “damn liberals” or “stupid conservatives”. Next time, try starting a political thread on a specific issue that you research and try to figure out. Doesn’t matter the issue, you’ll rapidly figure out that no one knows a great answer, there are plenty of people paid to give you a wrong answer, and it’s a ton of work to figure out the best compromise.
Maybe we need a real third party - the United party. Slogan: time to get down and dirty on the details. Platform: vote out the extremists on each side, vote in people willing to work hard to figure out the best we can do. Refuse funding more than $50 a person. No big donors regardless.
What do you think the chances are that something like that would happen? Big government, big industry, right and left wing media would be trying to kill it off instantly. It’s a threat to their very existence.
Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2017 - 11:22am PT
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It's always funny when a staunch "conservative" insists that the government provide something to them for free.
Curt
Gov't is supposed to serve a LIMITED function of society's infrastructure demands. If we could do it privately, it would be chaos.
The State of Ca. has a responsibility to tend to the needs of it's population. It should have no obligation to tend to the needs of China/India pollution, Global Warming, or illegal immigrant rights.
The priorities are wrong. Especially when Ca tells us we have a water shortage!!!!
WTF are they doing about it?
Edit: Greg, I address you after i read your diatribe.
I read this and became angry with your arrogant condescension;
It’s not your fault, but you have been brainwashed by rich fat cats who’ve spent millions and millions over the last few decades building up right wing entertainment media. They’ve created a large group of people who are brainwashed - brainwashed enough to actually vote to lower their own wages! Vote to cut good quality education for their OWN kids. Kids that will then grow up less able to defend themselves from being brainwashed.
I'm working a plumbing problem right now, but I'll read the rest of your post....
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Gov't is supposed to serve a LIMITED function of society's infrastructure demands. If we could do it privately, it would be chaos.
You're exactly right. Not having universal healthcare is a great example.
Curt
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John M
climber
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Read Greg Barnes post 10 times today, then read it every day for the next year.
The only part I would disagree with him on is that I believe that there is also a group of liberal minded folks who are gullible. ( Hillary is going to kick Trumps Ass is just one example)
I also don't think that we could get enough people to agree on everything even if their wasn't so much disinformation out there, both left leaning and right leaning disinformation.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2017 - 11:36am PT
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You're exactly right. Not having universal healthcare is a great example.
Curt
Healthcare is NOT a function of the Federal Government, idiot! Pick up a Constitution.
That is left up to individual States to deal with. Do you understand what Federalism is?
Same with all the other bullshit the Fed has co-opted like Gay Marriage, Abortion, etc...
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John M
climber
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^^^^^ thats why we can't get anyone to agree on anything.
How about.. Healthcare for everyone is a good thing? Is it possible to agree on that?
Naw.. probably not.
...
vvvvvv
I'll refrain from calling you a "idiot"
actually, you just did..
Okay.. enough for today..
Cheers Blue... good luck with the plumbing issue.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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Healthcare is NOT a function of the Federal Government, idiot! Pick up a Constitution.
I'll refrain from calling you an "idiot" but the subject of your current rant (water) is not a constitutionally mandated function of government either.
Curt
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2017 - 11:45am PT
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Let me preface my post by saying i dig your work with ASCA and all you do, you're a quality character.
Bluering, try to listen a bit. I’m trying to help.
This is no way to start a discussion. Arrogant and condescending. I assume you think I'm a child.
Do you listen to talk shows? Watch Fox? Talk with other folks who do?
You're assuming a lot, and speaks volumes of where you're coming from. The left. Again, not a good way to start a discussion.
It’s not your fault, but you have been brainwashed by rich fat cats who’ve spent millions and millions over the last few decades building up right wing entertainment media. They’ve created a large group of people who are brainwashed - brainwashed enough to actually vote to lower their own wages! Vote to cut good quality education for their OWN kids. Kids that will then grow up less able to defend themselves from being brainwashed.
Yeah, I see that. But does this only happen on the right? The left has been indoctrinated into Global Warming bullshit where it does not exist, Black Lives Matter, and on and on.
Is big government in California bloated and inefficient? Sure. Needs to be trimmed - definitely.
Do you want your kids swimming in toxic metal sludge? Nah…probably not. The big companies that fund the right wing media would just love to dump toxic sludge wherever and not have to pay anyone who gets poisoned.
Maybe small companies should be able to dump toxic sludge? Or maybe some not-all-that toxic junk? Maybe, maybe not - probably depends on the specifics. Maybe a mom-and-pop mechanic shop should be able to dump some carcinogen that’s not THAT bad in the sewer, but not dump some really nasty stuff. I’m not joking - maybe they should since it’s a tiny quantity and a big company would dump way the heck more. But it would depend on the exact chemical and how much, and where it would run off, and how it would enter our swimming creek or food supply.
Some regulation - and enforcement - we can probably all agree on. I bet we can also all agree that CA state government is bloated and wasteful in many areas - maybe not as wasteful as the Pentagon, but maybe even worse in some cases. I bet we could all get together, look at specifics, and cut out a lot of waste.
Same with the Pentagon, but of course that is “red state” big government, so maybe instead we should just pay them trillions more without any oversight? You see how ridiculous this kind of thinking is?
I bet we could also all get together, look at specifics, and find out that we really need to boost government spending on education, and that teacher salaries ought to be higher than that of the garbageman.
But there is no “all of us” anymore - there is Red and Blue, CREATED by rich fat cats and their entertainment industry.
Who loses? All of us. Because there is no “all” anymore in people’s minds. There is Red and Blue. By design. We blame each other. Why? We’re told to.
Everyone is at fault. But you’re kidding yourself if you don’t realize that red folks are more susceptible, simply because the entire culture revolves around right wing media which has been specifically engineered over only a few decades to brainwash folks. For all the whining about a “liberal media”, it is Red folks who are under far more direct control of the elites. That wasn’t the case only a few decades ago.
Think about this bluering - when you start these threads, you are parroting ELITE propaganda. Just because the elites you are parroting are those who own big oil and other industries doesn’t mean that they’re not billionaires. They want us to blame people, not systems. “Liberals”, not big industry and government (which any honest person realizes are so interconnected that they can’t be separated).
How about a United States, not red and blue? United is not good for big industry bottom lines - we might tax and regulate them. United is not good for bloated big government - we may cut and control it. United is not good for CEOs making hundreds of millions - if we’re united they’ll make a tiny fraction of that.
First step? Unite. I’d tie in with you any day, go explore crags, have the kids play together. I don’t “blame” you even though I’m told to. I know plenty of “red state”, “independent”, and “blue state” folks, and I notice that everyone tends to agree more and more when we get more into the specifics and details of any particular issue.
It’s the JOB of thousands (millions?) of folks to keep us separate. Separate and WEAK. Both political parties win when we polarize. They lose when we work together - in fact if we do both might disappear entirely.
We can all tie in together and climb - maybe we should try it off the rock too.
It’s a lot of work though. Get into the specifics and it’ll be way harder than spouting “damn liberals” or “stupid conservatives”. Next time, try starting a political thread on a specific issue that you research and try to figure out. Doesn’t matter the issue, you’ll rapidly figure out that no one knows a great answer, there are plenty of people paid to give you a wrong answer, and it’s a ton of work to figure out the best compromise.
Maybe we need a real third party - the United party. Slogan: time to get down and dirty on the details. Platform: vote out the extremists on each side, vote in people willing to work hard to figure out the best we can do. Refuse funding more than $50 a person. No big donors regardless.
What do you think the chances are that something like that would happen? Big government, big industry, right and left wing media would be trying to kill it off instantly. It’s a threat to their very existence.
Divide and conquer. Divide and conquer.
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August West
Trad climber
Where the wind blows strange
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If Sacramento thinks there is a water problem, why not fix it? Or quit f*#king me with threats of penalty for water usage.
It is true. It doesn't matter how many years of drought you have. How many almonds you grow. How many golf courses and lush, green lawns you have. There is always plenty of water that could be provided almost for free. But...
There is always a but.
The politicians ARE out to get you. California has absolutely refused to build any storage. Those claims about the state having over 1000 reservoirs is all just fake news.
The government actually releases water at night just to make the drought the worse.
They are trying to piss you off in the hope you will move out of state.
It doesn't sound like it is going to work, but you should try to moving to Oklahoma. Now there is a place that has never had a water shortage. Politicians there can pick up a handful of sun baked dirt, squeeze it with their bare hands and make water come out just like God ordained.
It's amazing what can be done with just a little political will.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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The left has been indoctrinated into Global Warming bullshit where it does not exist...
It's definitely hard to have a rational discussion when rationality itself is rejected. Denying science when it's inconvenient to your ideology is a non-starter.
Curt
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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There can be no agreement with forces propelling the inherently evil ideology of progressive doctrine. Down that road lies only defeat and misery of the totalitarian state. History has confirmed this over and over again throughout the 20th and into the 21st century.
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crankster
Trad climber
No. Tahoe
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Says the guy who voted for the dictator.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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There can be no agreement with forces propelling the inherently evil ideology of progressive doctrine. Down that road lies only defeat and misery of the totalitarian state. History has confirmed this over and over again throughout the 20th and into the 21st century.
Indeed. "Progressive doctrine" could lead the USA to becoming another totalitarian state like Denmark.
https://lifestyle9.org/worlds-best-country-to-live-in-2013/4/
Curt
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2017 - 12:02pm PT
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Greg, all your talk about fat-cats, do you have any scorn for the lack of Cal's attention to water storage?
Did you know there are left-wing 'fat-cats' that profit and deceive us so that they can get rich?
DO you acknowledge that?
That is what I'm talking about. California is swamped with 'green' bullshit programs that do little.
There used to be a term called 'conservationist' before the eco-Nazis hijacked everything. Toxic sludge is a knee-jerk term you use to scare people.
The gov't has gone too far. I would argue that the 'green' movement is their new cash-cow. They use it to constrain us unnecessarily, and tax us unfairly.
You make it sound like we hate clean water, clean air. You have pushed things too far
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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There is no water shortage problem, there is a water use problem. 80% of the water goes to grow crops, some of which are ridiculous water hogs. Agriculture is only 1% of the California economy. Do you see the problem?
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Jan 8, 2017 - 12:14pm PT
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There is no water shortage problem, there is a water use problem. 80% of the water goes to grow crops, some of which are ridiculous water hogs. Agriculture is only 1% of the California economy. Do you see the problem?
What is your solution? F*#k the Central Valley farmers that produce a whole lotta food?
We should stop farming in Ca.? The farmers are the problem, really?
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rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Sands Motel , Las Vegas
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Move to Tijuana and see what lack of environmental regulations look like... Tad...did you buy that at the Bass pro shop...?
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rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
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California is a lost cause. The only solution is to isolate the big city progressive strongholds and let their chosen system run its course.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Blue, it would raise the level of the conversation if you relied on your own sense of what should be fundamental rights of humans, and the responsibilities of people and society toward each other, rather than falling back to a reference to the constitution.
Citing the constitution in this conversation as the definition of rights is a way to say that you don't trust your own values or perception, and a way to deny the impacts of everything invented or that happened after the time of the founding fathers: industrial revolution and pollution, the end of legal slavery, equal rights for women and ethnic minorities (and almost but not quite: sexual minorities), internet technology and automation and multi-national companies that can quickly reallocate resources to pursue the most profit without regard for human or environmental impacts, advances in healthcare that make amazing things possible but sometimes at an exorbitant cost so we do have to place a monetary value on life, etc....
So if you want to start a discussion thread to intelligently explore issues and consider alternative solutions, that's one thing. But if you just wanted to practice for a future job ranting on angry right-wing radio or TV, and throw in references to the constitution to sound smarter to other folks who are taking a similarly shallow approach, carry on.
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Curt
climber
Gold Canyon, AZ
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California is a lost cause.
49 other States only wish they could be so lost.
Curt
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