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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Dec 29, 2016 - 09:53am PT
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@Guy. We'll be there. See you then.
Burch- ready on the trigger as always. :)
@ Jeff- sorry you are going through some rough stuff.
Lets give it a rest for now. . Olive branch- fer real
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 29, 2016 - 10:17am PT
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Olive branch- fer real
AMEN! I'll buy! I have it on gud authority that Jeff is great in person
and I know JTM and Mr E are so I'd say start 2017 afresh! :-)
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 29, 2016 - 11:01am PT
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I know above Willy and below there are year round pools but no year round pools anywhere near the climbing area.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 29, 2016 - 11:06am PT
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Just for yuks I thought I'd call and speak with some of my old contacts at the ANF offices.
Very few left from the original staff but the new folks handling the closure are completely clueless. "Williamson is under a hard closure and will never be opened again" was the reply I got from one clown that didn't even know where it was located.
I have a few calls out and expect returns but it's likely nothing has changed.
We have to remember who we are dealing with and why they are there.
Hint, it's not for climbers.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 29, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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Hint, it's not for climbers
It ain't for anybody except the paper shufflers at the Taj Mahal.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 29, 2016 - 11:14am PT
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It's clear from his response that the AF hasn't been making any calls to the ANF anytime recently.
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looking sketchy there...
Social climber
Lassitude 33
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Dec 29, 2016 - 04:05pm PT
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I usually refrain from snarky remarks, but, really?
It's clear from his response that the AF hasn't been making any calls to the ANF anytime recently.
Sorry, I think the only thing your post demonstrates is your own lack of information.
While I known that knee jerk opinions are de-rigueur on ST, as here, they seldom reflect kindly on the poster.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 29, 2016 - 05:40pm PT
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My remarks were pretty tame for ST but I am not impressed with the AF's relaying of information regarding Willy over the years. Anytime I ask I get the same old "join or donate and we are working on it". How about an update even once a year in the newsletter?
If the AF has been in contact with the ANF they are doing a piss poor job letting the members know.
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crusher
climber
Santa Monica, CA
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:07pm PT
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So at this point, besides sending $ to access fund what else can we do, if anything?
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:16pm PT
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Crusher, a Hayduking of the Taj Mahal is indicated.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 29, 2016 - 08:35pm PT
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So at this point, besides sending $ to access fund what else can we do, if anything?
Get involved. Get the names of all the individuals involved at Fish & Wildllife and the Angeles National Forest offices and coordinate meetings with local Congressman. As many as needed. Invite pro access groups like Friends of Williamson and Access Fund. Come prepared with proof of closure issuing authorities contradictory statements and proof of the shoddy work done by intern biologists. Stay on top of the latest SOPA and Environmental Studies and read and understand them.
Show proof of hundreds of volunteers ready to help in anyway they can to allow the frog population and recreationists to coexist.
Start and promote letter writing campaigns and petitions. Keep the climbing community informed of important dates for public input.
Network and connect agencies involved and follow up on promised appointments and meetings.
Write to judges involved in closure decisions. Talk to supervisors of agencies involved and make them provide documents as provided by law for public viewing.
Keep these people working and doing their respective jobs as public servants.
Oh wait, I tried that.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Dec 29, 2016 - 10:05pm PT
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When Trump is pres we can get some mining companies in there and a logging permit AND a grazing permit. With all the mess no one will notice hoards of sport climbers returning to poop in the frog pond.
Meanwhile, a few thousand feet away on vitually the same rock you have 100+ routes at the the tunnel crags.
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Batrock
Trad climber
Burbank
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Dec 30, 2016 - 07:03am PT
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The Tunnel don't hold a candle to the rock quality at Willy. People always thought Willy was choss but it's a pretty damn solid chunk of rock. The Tunnels are fun but they are no Willy.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 30, 2016 - 08:26am PT
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The Tunnels are fun but they are no Willy.
So True.....
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jeff constine
Trad climber
Ao Namao
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Dec 30, 2016 - 09:45am PT
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Super Fun! Yes, it ain't willy nothing around here is as good as willy in LA. Except for the Punchblow! Attitude wall ROCKS.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 09:58am PT
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Show proof of hundreds of volunteers ready to help in anyway they can to allow the frog population and recreationists to coexist.
the problem is, as has been shown time and again, that they cannot coexist... "recreationists," aka people, will adversely affect the frogs.
what's the tradeoff? extinguishing the rare frog population vs. having the experience of climbing on a so-so cliff destination...
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 10:10am PT
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Ed, I think most of us can be categorized, more or less, as tree huggers. I for one have done
extensive field work in wildlife biology with my ex. I completely fail to see how climbers
impacted the frogs, unless it was that time I was there and some tards were cranking their
boom box. The 'creek' is maybe 8' across, when it is even flowing. You step on two rocks and
you're across, with no frogs squished or otherwise inconvenienced. If the retards at ANF had
any honest intention of fulfilling their congressional mandate they would engage the climbers
as co-stewards in the little slimey buggers' preservation. Oh, I meant the frogs, not the bureaucrats.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Dec 30, 2016 - 10:45am PT
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Ed.... there are no Frogs, never were, even way before the climbers... their has always been a different kind of frog but not the MYLF or whatever they call the specific one that is close to extinction.
and the frogs that do live there live up-stream And down-stream from the place where we climb at just has a semi-dry creek at the base.
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pud
climber
Sportbikeville & Yucca brevifolia
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Dec 30, 2016 - 11:04am PT
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the problem is, as has been shown time and again, that they cannot coexist... "recreationists," aka people, will adversely affect the frogs.
what's the tradeoff? extinguishing the rare frog population vs. having the experience of climbing on a so-so cliff destination...
Ignorance has been the greatest obstacle for the re-opening of Williamson.
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Dec 30, 2016 - 11:35am PT
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the role of identifying the "endangered species" in terms of preserving its habitat is broader than just "saving" that particular species, it has to do with the goal of habitat preservation.
My observations are that the exclusion of people is the most effective way to preserve that habitat. Some of us able to travel to places like the National Test Site observe that even where the most destructive single acts of environmental alteration have been performed, the exclusion of people has had a most positive effect on restoring those environments.
It's not about "stepping" on a frog.
Wildlife biologists were horrified to learn that in their desire to study amphibian species from water source to water source, they were the unwitting vectors of organisms, on their boots, their boats, etc, infecting "clean" water sources. They have since cleaned up their act, recognizing the need to prevent this sort of contamination.
As far as Williamson Rock is concerned, we cannot look at this as climbers and not recognize that we have a particular point-of-view that we are, by-and-large, unwilling to abandon, that is, we have a "right" to climb anywhere.
From this point-of-view there is no acceptable outcome except to allow climbing at Williamson (or any other place).
I fail to see an equally biased point of view from the biologists who recommended the closures. In particular, they view the entire habitat related to the particular species, not just the species. And they are willing to admit that they don't understand the entire ecology, which leads them to recommend a conservative approach to managing it.
The climbers also do not understand how that ecology works, but thier reaction is that however it does, climbing cannot be a factor. They are certain, not because they understand the science of that particular ecology better, but because they desire access to practice their avocation unconstrained by any other consideration.
If that is an ignorant point of view of this situation, then I'm guilty.
As for climbing quality, I admit being somewhat snobbish... Toula 1995 notes: "Sport routes of all grades. Steep, quality climbing in a beautiful canyon. Afternoon shade and 7000' elevation makes it a tolerable L.A. option in the summer..." He also gives it a slightly better "worth a week" than just "a day."
I never climbed there in the time I was living in L.A., mostly going to the "usual" destinations, but then again, sport climbing hadn't emerged yet, I'm not sure that the area was a climbing destination in the early-1970s.
You can ask yourself this question:
What would be acceptable grounds for closing a climbing area?
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