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Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
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Mar 19, 2017 - 01:03pm PT
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Just don't expect NASA to lead the way; the agency has become ultra risk averse and has spread their allocated money around to far too many internal departments with pet projects designed to keep a lot of engineers employed. The charge will be led by the entrepreneurial types, such as Bezos an Musk. Overall, the necessary hardware is available or will be, soon. Another problem NASA has is the ueber expensive SLS system--a rocket currently without a mission. The 2018 budget cancels the cockamamie asteroid retrieval mission, and about the only thing left for it is a redux of Apollo 8, the lunar circumnavigation done back in 1968. The problem with a Mars expedition is not so much getting there, but getting back and having a base of operations for time between Hohmann transfer windows (the minimum energy elliptical trajectories flown by the spacecraft). A real scientific expedition to Mars will involve a total time commitment of between 30 and 34 months, depending on which trajectories and delta V's from the planetary orbits are selected (or are mandated by the vehicle designs). In a discussion with several retired aerospace engineers on the Mars Society website, the major problem is the fuels utilized by current heavy lift space vehicles. The fuel currently in use by SpaceX is RP-1, a rocket fuel grade ultra refined kerosene. In a deep space long duration flight, it slowly gels to the consistency of hard Jello due to the temperatures to which it's exposed. The answer is the hypergolic combination of Monomethyl Hydrazine (MMH), and dinitrogen tetroxide (NTO). Plenty of thrust generated by these components, but not currently favored by US space industry. The Russians use these compounds in their Proton M rocket in all 4 stages. A cooperative vehicle using USA heavy lifters and Russian upper stages could easily propel a 20 metric tonne spacecraft to Mars. It could even be safely landed along with 2 years supplies for a crew of 4. The return ticket is the problem.
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Majid_S
Mountain climber
Karkoekstan, Former USSR
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Mar 20, 2017 - 10:13pm PT
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Honestly I think we came from mars but we f*#ked it long ago and had to abandoned it.Now we are planning to go back to jump start it.
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Bushman
climber
The state of quantum flux
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 29, 2017 - 08:29am PT
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The case for Mars...again.
Weigh the cost of human lives and planetary resources squandered on war against the cost of manned space travel and the answer becomes easy. But convincing human civilization that space travel will always be a unifying endeavor is the hard part. When comparing the destructive consequences of tribal conflict to the benefits of exploration and scientific innovation, for most people you would think it would be a no brainer. Think again.
A few weeks ago I had I vivid nightmare about nuclear annihilation. It was terrifying. Last night I dreamed that almost everyone on earth simultaneously tuned into a live feed of a monumental event..
Astronauts were leaving the Mars atmosphere after a long and death defying mission. Then they were making a final burn to leave a Mars orbit for their return trip home.
To my mind at first it felt like an everyday occurrence. But then I realized that it would mark the most important achievement in human history during my lifetime. When I've dreamed a dream, then tried to live it, it has always been the most difficult thing. Life always gets in the way.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Apr 29, 2017 - 12:08pm PT
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Weigh the cost of human lives and planetary resources squandered on war against the cost of manned space travel and the answer becomes easy.
Nice comparison, if only it were true. It is not.
War will always come FIRST in any equation, because it is tied up in the existence of the countries involved.
So what will be sacrificed is all of the other things that make like worth living.
Would you sell off Yos to fund a mars mission?
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SteveW
Trad climber
The state of confusion
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Apr 29, 2017 - 07:40pm PT
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Those of you that want to travel in space, please go right ahead.
I like it right here on earth.
(Though I admire the astronauts, they're all BOLD)!
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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Apr 29, 2017 - 07:51pm PT
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Brokedownclimber posted:
The return ticket is the problem.
Indeed - hence the appeal of robotic missions.
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skcreidc
Social climber
SD, CA
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Mars is not deep space.
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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We can't even set up a self sustaining human life habitat system at the bottom of the ocean or on the South Pole, so I'm skeptical if it's going to be so easy on Mars
The expense would be huge.
I sure wouldn't want to go to Mars, nor the bottom of the ocean or the South Pole
As long as Republicans are in charge, we might as well forget about any true science being funded, maybe they will fund fake science to make the Oil Companies feel less threatened by those nasty libs
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Craig Fry
Trad climber
So Cal.
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Steven Hawking is wrong
It will always be easier to survive on earth no matter how bad it gets here
It will never be so bad that we have to leave the planet to survive
and even if we did set up on another planet, our existence there would be less survivable and have less of a chance on long term survivability than on a wrecked planet earth.
Nuclear Holocaust?
It's easier to let the dust settle, then have short cancer ridden life spans than live on Cosmic Ray engulfed planet with no air, food, fuel or running water.
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Sula
Trad climber
Pennsylvania
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With climate change, overdue asteroid strikes, epidemics and population growth, our own planet is increasingly precarious. I suspect not even the most extreme predictions of the effects of climate change predict a year 2117 climate nearly as bad as Mars'.
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BooDawg
Social climber
Butterfly Town
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Billionaires can go to Mars (and maybe stay there!), but not on the public's money. Billionaires are taking even more of our money now! We have plenty of more worthwhile needs to take care of here on earth, like clean air and water as well as affordable healthcare, quality education, and economic & political justice for all.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Enjoy the trip, send me a post card. But don't expect me to help pay or think yer cool.
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WBraun
climber
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Let's send all those nutcases to mars to fight out their stoopid wars and ideas.
The earth can then become peaceful once again.
Go now!!!! do not wait, go now!!!!
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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Another here: NASA astronaut who spent a year in space now has different DNA from his twin
Altered genes are bad enough and this doesn't take into account gene expression or epigenetic effects. It's a good indicator of how completely wedded to this planetary ecology we are, that we cannot long survive without it, and cannot take it with us. And really, if we can't take better care of this planet the last thing the universe needs is us galavanting around ruining other places.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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BACK to Deep space?
The only thing we even got close to interstellar space, intergalactic space, or extragalactic space is one little Voyager that is still in the Oort Cloud.
It’s not even past the outer orbit of Sedna.
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Portland Oregon
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Steven Hawking is wrong
It will always be easier to survive on earth no matter how bad it gets here
What’s your plan for living inside a red giant star?
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healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
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All things must pass...
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
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Altered genes are bad enough and this doesn't take into account gene expression or epigenetic effects. It's a good indicator of how completely wedded to this planetary ecology we are, that we cannot long survive without it, and cannot take it with us. And really, if we can't take better care of this planet the last thing the universe needs is us galavanting around ruining other places. -healyje
1. How are "altered genes bad enough" if this doesn't take into account gene expression?
2. "It's a good indicator of how completely wedded to this planetary ecology we are." No disagreement here. So what's the inference or implication? We're wedded here, so spacefaring and further planetary colonies are silly stupid... feckless... or to use another's term.... wasteful?
What if, after some actual experience in Mars colonization, we learn that a full 3% of the population isn't affected by gene alternation due to lower gravity? Wouldn't that be something!
4. "if we can't take better care of this planet the last thing the universe needs is us galavanting around ruining other places."
Really if I hear this notion one more time, I'm going to puke. One, there's no reason we can't do both; two, nobody in the pro-spacefaring camp seriously says, Let's colonize Mars, then we can trash this one. This is Strawman put forth by partisans, idiots, trolls or debbie downers.
Imagine 100k years ago our ancestors saying, if we can't take better care of Timbuktu, the last thing the Earth needs is us gallivanting around ruining other places.
The idea of further spacefaring... with a few planetary colonies thrown in... is an exciting prospect beginning with the extra insights and opportunities (presently unknown) these activities might (Edit: would almost certainly) afford.
Last but not least: This would make us a multiplanentary species. I for one would think that's pretty cool. From pond scum to multiplanetary species. Wow!
"Wasteful"
lol
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