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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Dec 10, 2006 - 08:05pm PT
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If you don't like Aidan's bolts don't clip 'em!
Most of his lines are pretty darn clean, bolts are well spaced,
and all around solid.
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Dec 10, 2006 - 08:56pm PT
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Dank... YOU JUST DON'T GET IT, do you? Aidens bolts are over another route, that didn't have them before. He's not doing FAs, he's butchering EXSISTING routes! Put it together man, it's sacrilidge. "don't clip them" what a cop out. I guess you like to sport climb too. Great, go the the "gallery" in Red Rocks and pose with the other weenies. But Sugarloaf, Phantom Spires and Lovers' Leap aren't sport climbing areas, no matter what Aiden or guys like you think. Leave your drill at home and man up...
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Dec 10, 2006 - 10:32pm PT
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COILER and others: You make it sound like Aidan has retrobolted all the scary routes up highway 50. I know you all have mentioned Smith-Price (Lesbian Love) at Phantom spires, Crushed Velvet at Sugarloaf, Fallen Hero and Catecholamine (previously called Confederacy of Dunces) at Lovers Leap as being examples of Aidan's over bolting tendencies. Aidan has explained on this forum that what he has done is totally appropriate and I haven't seen much to dispute what he has said. I just see a bunch of general innuendos such as Coiler's "All this in the same time period that Aidan got himself a power drill". Put up or shut up Coiler etc. tell us all of Aidan's transgressions so we can judge him a jerk or a hero. Rick (Rags): How's your bolting ban on El Cap going? (Remember Rick, I'm the only one to see you climb 5.12)(I still love you and always will)
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dank
Trad climber
the pitch above you!
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Dec 10, 2006 - 11:31pm PT
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coiler...i actually don't sport climb and have climbed outdoors my entire life...if you're so pissed go pull 'em out...you're just another dirtbag with an agenda like the rest of us...pretty soon you'll be retired and some punk kid is gonna shred all over your precious rock...get over yourself...your old news!
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
climber
Calyfucinphornya
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2006 - 12:49am PT
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Wow! Impressive quantities of slander and ill will been spewed by a handful of happy chaps on Supertopo.
Hey Coiler, I've got it now. You’re the guy that lived in a cave for two years in the valley. You’d come by to BS and scrounge up a beer or hit of pot before retiring back to your comfy abode.
Brian I think. Am I right? How come all you brave and noble boys have to use these manly handles instead of your name. Apocalysenow, oooooohhh!
Chalky Foreskin, er' I mean fingers.
and Coiler. Isn't this the name you received for the gargantuan odoriferous logs you could lay? Nice. I'm serious, that’s what I heard? I also understand that you have grown rotund in your advancing years (well, if you can't evolve your mind might as well expand your waistline). I suggest you change to handle from "Coiler" to "Boiler". Now that a name to be proud off.
Have you noticed that most of the time I put may name at the end. Why don't manly man replete with swelling testicles and nimble fingers actually drop the disguise and we can talk. Better still you can email directly, or even call on the phone. Best of all, let’s go climbing! It can be a small but intimate group. Chalky Foreskin, Boiler, Apoplecticnow and me the hypogonadal flimsy excuse of a trad climber. Let’s make the date!
Love and kisses
Aidan Maguire
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
climber
Calyfucinphornya
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 11, 2006 - 01:39am PT
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Dear boiler, Chalky Foreskin and Apoplectic Now, and the rest of the Forum fellows
The last posting was from IMPOSTER Tripod?, Swellguy?, Halfwit, Smegma. I personally know T,S,H,M and he would never
resort to such underhand tactics as four sylible words to confuse
the opposition.
A few clarifications:
I have never suggested I'm a "pioneer" in anything (Except perhaps a certain trick with my foreskin which is better left there).
Second: I've never placed a bolt four feet from another.
Third: I am a legend in my own lunchtime, not my own mind.
At the Leap I have only put up 3 routes. Hardly legendary!
One of them now called Catacholamine is immediatly left of Glaze her face. It is a route that was cleaned on Rap (it was extremly dirty), the rope was pulled and it was lead without prior TR, without bolts on very small gear. No rehersing. Its not that hard (10c) but very trad (R), and well worth doing.
It's funny how my token scary Leap route is nicely overlooked, as It does not fit the profile for the evil rap bolter who spearheads the demise of traditional climbing.
While I'm blathering, let me defend Will Cottrell. The reason anyone can climb much of Cal dome is because he, John R and a few others (not I)have spent a shitload of money and time REPLACING old way manky bolts and more importantly anchors. Cal dome is an amazing place, but the condition of many of the routes is pretty bad. It's true I think a few bolts have been added here and there out of ignorance of prior ascents, but as is typical of you wankers (isn't is great that "WANKERS" isn't automatically edited out?), The hundreds of hours restoring old routes without added bolts, building trails, and trying to topo routes so future generations can see the history is ignored. Your just a bunch of malcontents who can find little joy anything
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Oddchick? Wingnut? Strangechick? Freakazoid?
Trad climber
Pollack Pines
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Dec 11, 2006 - 01:25pm PT
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And just for your the record Coiler, as long as we're being honest. The word on the street is that you actually talk more than you climb. You have been witnessed dogging multiple route that you claimed you redpointed (and giving B.J.s to lowbaggers), and that you are a closet gay (not to be homophobic; I'm bi).
Coiler, the cat is out of the bag on your puny reputation. I think you should spend far less time slandering others and try to keep your own life and climbing style together.
Remember what your kindergarten teacher said; "if you don't have anything nce to say, say nothing at all."
And one more thing, other folks on Supertopo verified that you never actually climbed Fantasia. Turns out you were on the the 5.7 wth the nice pro three routes over.
love and kisses,
Ethyll Hazeltone
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pc
climber
East of Seattle
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Dec 11, 2006 - 02:29pm PT
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Someone added bolts to Fantasia? Cool. Now maybe I'll give it a go.
pc
BTW One of the better threads in a while.
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caughtinside
Social climber
Davis, CA
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Dec 11, 2006 - 05:45pm PT
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hey, off topic from all this tantalizing slander, but has Glaze her Face gone free?
And who is the mysterious Chalky Fingers?
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coiler
Trad climber
yosemite
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Dec 11, 2006 - 06:08pm PT
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Ah, I must have struck a nerve, judging by the verbal diahreah coming from your post! I'm sure your Supertopo sources which you will not name, follow me around everywhere I go climbing to verify what I do and do not climb. Yes, it was I that lived in a cave in Yosemite, but it was more like 6 years of that (before that I lived at the Lovers' Leap CG).And yes, I have evolved a bit and live in a house now. That cave thing was fun when I was in my 20's, I'm over it now though. Let that be an example of how much I love climbing, man I frickin' lived it. Now I've got a mortage and other things that take me away from climbing. I'm sure as hell not going to let some rap bolter take the proud climbing away when I do get a chance for it. You still haven't said why you feel it nescesary to re-bolt existing routes for the people, and why these "new" routes need new names. All of a sudden the conversation turns to Cal dome or what I have or have not climbed. I don't think my climbing is what's under scrutiny here, I'm not the one going full on public when I put a new route "up". Anyone who realy know who I am knows what I've climbed, and it's a shitload! Enough to where I don't let it run my life anymore, that's for sure. So, We're all still waiting for your explination....ready yet?
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Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?
climber
Calyfucinphornya
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 12, 2006 - 03:00am PT
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My Dear Boiler,
Yes indeed! My nerves are wracked. Your clever replies, cutting remarks and rapier wit have left me a mere shell of my former self. I give in. YOU WIN. I will begin life anew tomorrow.
Anyway, listen. I dare say your not a bad sort? I get along with most people and can take a good piss-taking anytime. Here's the thing though: This Forum stuff is just a bunch of bullshit and you know as well as I do. Let's go climbing sometime. I'm quite serious. Not to see who can climb harder, scarier. Just to find some common ground. I will be happy to explain every route, every bolt, avery anchor I ever placed. I don't expect you to agree with it all, but thats ok. You can slag me off all day long. Hell, bring some friends along and you can have a feeding frenzy. I really don't mind. I enjoy a good debate. Or even a good slagging match for that matter. I feel fine, infact good about what I have contributed to the area.
Can you make it up to Sugarloaf this winter? Lets go up and do Ghost in the Machine? Beautiful, airy, a bit bold. It will take the edge off and then we can talk. Talk like men, not like girly girls bitch slapping in cyberspace to impress the crowd. Let me know when.
email me directly if you like.
ultraviolet@directcon.net
so long,
Aidan
PS it's diarrhea not diahreah (don't you wish Forum had a spell check?)
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 12, 2006 - 01:46pm PT
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Coiler,
I think I found your scratch awl, or whatever the heck you call it in your old cave. Rusty as all crap. Found it while stashing water for safe keeping after yet another BW solo failure. I think Mr. Steeler's found one of your biners with the orange paint in there a year and half ago. Nuetrino maybe? Looked like it was rigged for hanging a portaledge from.
Good times...
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Oddchick? Wingnut? Strangechick? Freakazoid?
Trad climber
Pollack Pines
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Dec 12, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
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Three questions Tripod? Swellguy? Halfwit? Smegma?:
Firstly, did you feel any guilt when you retro-bolting Bachar-Yerian? Would you take me climbing too (though we have had a "relationship")? And, what color is your parachute?
Love,
Ethyll Hazeltone
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Dec 13, 2006 - 12:52pm PT
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Jim Bridwell once said: "Ground up climbers start at the ground and go up". (This was in reference to on sighting a climb that doesn't have cracks or other features to use as protection, a face climb falls in this category). My take on this is: No prerehersal, No doing it on top rope before doing it "ground up", No beta from someone else that previously top roped it, and no aid climbing (no hooks etc). You go to base of a climb with a rope, a belayer and a bolt kit. You go up untill you find a stance and you drill a bolt. You then continue up until you find another stance and you drill another bolt. If you can't do it this way then leave the climb for someone else that can. I've seen too many climbers in the highway 50 corridor that violate these simple procedures and yet they say they are "Ground up climbers". I think that anyone who climbs using methods other than what I just described should not be criticizing people that employ any other method to put up a new climb.
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Tallskinny
Sport climber
Placerville, CA
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Dec 13, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
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Religious zealotry abounds. Find some ultra-religious church and take your battles there to defoul other folks. Bolting and/or safely bolting a route NEVER precludes anybody from doing an old route the way it was originally done, just warm up your huevos and do it that way! New bolts offer safety to those who are pushing a grade; all that you few hard and overspoken people have to do is look beyond and ignore them! Maybe you should just be freesoloing, right past all bolts, or maybe your quivering legs would end up shaking you off. Might we never get rid of these people who are so much better than the rest of us?
I will personally attest to Aidan's (not Aiden, btw) high standards in climbing and establishing routes. I've never seen him put in an excess bolt, in fact, he has avoided putting in pertinent bolts because of personal or external controversy. I will continue to be around to speak for Aidan's routes and to help him establish them when I can.
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johnr9q
Sport climber
Sacramento, Ca
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Dec 13, 2006 - 01:02pm PT
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Jerry: If you are saying it's akay to add bolts to an existing route, I disagree with you. (there are a few exceptions to this) John Robinson
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Moof
Trad climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Dec 13, 2006 - 02:01pm PT
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Guess we should put a dozen bolts on Double Cross for safety too then. Let's also put a few bolts on the start of Bear's Reach, and the first anchor while we're at it. Heck the crux of Deception Direct is a little hard to protect, let's add a couple there too. Safety First!
As best I can tell, nobody is saying bolts are inherently bad. But violating the local ethic by rap bolting an area with a strict grounds up tradition is BAD. Defiling an existing climb with extra bolts and calling is an FA merely beacause it has 10' of new climbing to link together sections of a pre-existing route is BAD. Such lack of ethics fully justify a chop job in my book.
If you want to put up new routes, find a new route, don't force in a pack job. If you want to rap bolt, go to a crag where the ethic allows it. Dumbing down old bold routes is not the answer.
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the Fet
Knackered climber
A bivy sack in the secret campground
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Dec 13, 2006 - 04:31pm PT
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First, let me say adding bolts to an existing climb to make it safer is not good, and unethical. It ruins the mental challenge required to get on the climb.
Secondly, establishing a route on lead is better STYLE than on rap, also establishing it free is better than on hooks.
But if a climb will not go in ground up, should it not go in at all? I don't believe that, I believe the most important part of the FA is establishing a quality route, the style used to put it up is secondary.
violating the local ethic by rap bolting an area with a strict grounds up tradition is BAD
Why? I don't necessarily disagree with that, but is that a local ethic or a local style? (Hmm, Lost Arrow was fist climbed top down, so I guess Yosemite isn't a ground up area right?) The only ethical quandry I see here is who gets to do the route. Yes someone who does a route ground up gets a better challenge than someone who raps it, does that mean a rap bolter should leave it alone for the ground up guy? Following that logic someone who wants to do an FA on hooks should leave it for someone who can do it free. If not tell me why.
Rapping and power drilling are faster so that does factor into how routes are done. But does that override first come first served to a new route?
I bring up these questions because certain people have this absolute view of how things need to be. It's funny how the style they climb in is the exact same limit of what they think people should be able to do, but they haven't given me any good reasons why their reasoning is absolute. I can always point to a viewpoint that is more traditional (no aid should be used) or more sport (chip and grid bolt everything on rap) to show there is a continuum of positions.
I guess the saving grace is that people can go out and climb how they want, and others can go and chop bolts they feel are out of line, so in reality people will do what they want.
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wolfy
Trad climber
Reno, NV
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Dec 14, 2006 - 04:28pm PT
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Hi,
You FAists should think about the life of a climb. Most of us that come along after you don't care about the FA and only are able to judge the climb on how we find it. And for most of us runouts on crappy old bolts = a bad climb. Sure it takes some killer stones to nut up it, but if you're talking about 30 foot or longer runouts that are a result of the FAist being too gripped to place more, or too cheep to buy more, then why have any at all? When you get bored and dejected just go speed-solo climb bears reach.
Of course when you're pushing 5.12 it doesn't make a difference to me. So the combo of a tempting 5.9 or 5.10 and an r or x rating is just lame for some(probably most) of us.
-M
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Dec 14, 2006 - 05:40pm PT
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I hate runouts on crappy old bolts too.
place them well, and replace them if they get old.
the runout part; sack up.
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