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N0_ONE
Social climber
Utah
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Yawn!
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jack herer
climber
veneta, or
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Ron-
Great I will have to check that out next time I'm in the area. I stared at it every day for 2 weeks! Is it in any guide books? Any good aid lines?
Thanks!
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Snow Canyon can be fun but No_One obviously feels that the rocks are better where he goes to visit his wives.
But this thread was supposed to be about spicy runouts not spicy runs.
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WoodySt
Trad climber
Riverside
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There may be a problem with definitions here. Just about any fall can result in injury or a freakish fatality. When I use the X mark, I've evaluated the danger of injury or death as extreme, severe injury absolutely. Further, I don't define a sportclimb as a climb protected only by bolts as some of you seem to do. I understand this may be ambiguous. Serpentine (Suicide ) might be sport for some, not others. Duck Soup/Revelations, not sport. I think of sport climbing as outdoor gym. This isn't an ideal parallel but reasonable close. Loose Lady is sport for some, not for others; it's on the margin; yank one bolt, and it sure isn't sport. So being a solely bolted route does not a sportclimb make; it's the distance between the bolts.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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What's REALLY funny is that you don't see your own contradiction. lol
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Jeremy Handren
climber
NV
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In the late 1980's I put up one of the early routes at Rumney, Flesh for Lulu. I'd done plenty of 5.12's before, but in New Hampshire at that time almost all the harder routes climbed typical trad features such as thin cracks or corners. Flesh was probably one of the first long, overhanging wall climbs that I ever did, and for me at the time it was right at my upper limit for that sort of climbing. I knew the route would need some bolts, but in those days sport climbing didnt really exist ( at least not in name anyway) and I only wanted to use the absolute minimum that I thought I could get away with. So I rapped in and placed two. I didn't top rope the route before leading it and the whole venture was bloody terrifying. I only had the balls to try the route once or twice each day but eventually on day four I pulled over the top with a big sigh of relief. Sometime later Ken Nichols chopped all of the bolts at Rumney, and shortly after, the locals fitted the route with 9 bolts making it a full fledged sport route.
At the time they asked me for permission to retrobolt the route. I said no, arguing that if you wanted to do the route in perfect safety it was very easy to set up a top rope (they bolted it anyway). Greg and Russ seem to be saying that because the route was rap bolted that that means that it can't be a scary route as well, the reasoning being that as a first ascentionist you have a big advantage over subsequent ascents. But if the first asent involved a rappel inspection then whats stopping any other climber from doing the same?, or even top roping it if they want to hedge their bets a little. And if some stud comes along, he can go for the onsight. I don't see why thats a problem. There are a lot of different ways to test your nerve while rock climbing, onsighting is just one. Twenty years and thousands of sport climbs later I still think New Hampshire climbers lost out when Flesh for Lulu was retrobolted.
Jerry
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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"Let me be very clear: the climber with clear intent to put up an X when that need not be necessary is an ego driven juvenile and owns nothing vis a vis that route. If someone comes along and corrects the flaw--X, good for them."
This is a pretty good example of an attitude than came into play along with sport climbing. Before that, risk and adventure was an accepted part of climbing, and if you lacked the tools to tic a given runout route, you'd never of felt entitled to "correct the flaw" in order to bring the route to within acceptable personal levels of committment. That would have been seen as juvinile, where the creators of first ascents were obliged to take your needs into account. Nowadays, putting up a route has taken on the apsect of community service--a different mindset and value system to be sure.
JL
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Sorry wes, we are getting caught in the time warp here. You edited you post after I read it. I agree with what you changed it to.
On the other hand, while the world has changed, why can't we aim to control the change a little bit?
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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let's start by getting rid of all the sport climbers
may have my quotes mixed up here.
maybe it's a formula, not a quote...lemme see how did that go? A2 + R2 = Balls squared
Solve for F, where F = constant Fun
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G_Gnome
Boulder climber
Sick Midget Land
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Can't do that Munge. Too many of us cross dress these days.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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"And before that it was 10 hour days in the field behind a plow... and uphill to school in the snow with no shoes... both ways... and the rock was shared by the very few who could get out and enjoy it... it ain't the same world, it never will be."
Hold your horses there, partner. Your analogy is off because when my grandpappy quit having to hump into school through a snowdrift, and could take a bus instead, the only thing he lost was needless suffering. Whereas in transitioning from run out to sport bolted you loose the chance to access both courage and sincerity, which some may consider "needless," while other do not. For some, having something real at stake gave the adventure added meaning and significance. You didn't pose out there on the sharp end when the last bolt was 30 feet below. You had only your own basic stuff, and I'm afraid that some have lost the sense of even knowing that such an encounter with yourself is worth having. It was never danger for dangers sake. That's ludicrous.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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The bottom line reality is that local or prevailing community opinions dictate what stays or what goes in most areas. If it changes, the area changes. Community tends to, perhaps unconsciously, consider all the factors: past history and tradition, the players and their history, and the mood in general. For better or worse, community plays favorites too.
That said, it's good to debate these topics because it makes people think and of course, communication can reduce the last resort of bolt wars in an area, which is an unfortunatel thing for climbers and can threaten access if word gets out.
peace
Karl
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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"Spicy [rumouts] by design" happen everyday!
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crankenstein
Trad climber
Louisville, CO
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I can only hope that the approaches to these kinds of "problems" in the future will be as diverse as the multitude of styles of placing permanent protection and putting up new routes. It seems that, for the most part the spacing of bolts has been determined largely by the FA party. I think that FA's should be respected, but in the case of a clearly-by-public-consensus "botched" route, then the public should be able to coerce the 1st ascentionist(s) to correct the mistake.
I can think of a couple of extremes that demonstrate the experience of runouts or lack of; one is the route created with a mandatory stick clip to get you top roped through the crux and the other being the climber who skips clips because he know that that bolt or those bolts weren't on the first ascent so I want to experience it as the FA did.
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Euroford
Trad climber
chicago
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i'll admit to having not read this entire thread, but i've been drinking so i'll spout off anyways. i mean, this is the interweb right? what else do you expect?
i'm not much of a free climber, mostly becouse i'm just not much up for uber steep routes. i really dig it, but ya know, looking at photos of the Gunks that place just sounds like no fun to me.
but where i do excell in the land of the free, is slab climbing. the land of the runout bolted climbs. i just dig that stuff, all technique and risk, without the nasty pump that just isn't my thing. and even though bolt protected, its oh so very trad, and oh so very ground up, which is where my ethic lies.
the polar opposite of my climbing love is sport climbing. after a visit to so-ill i now have a grand total of 2 leads and 2 topropes of sport climbs under my belt.
i guess it has its place, walking around jackson falls i could for the first time actually understand where sport climbers are comming from. some places, and some rocks are just suited towards it. the persuit of gymnastic difficulty without the factor of risk.
if somebody was to contrive the addition of risk to those climbs, it would just seam kind of ridiculous really.
so, as i'm sure your all patiantly waiting for me to get to the point, so here it is:
rap bolting runout sport routes = silly
runout bolts placed on lead = way coolness
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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and by 'coerce' we mean persuade with reason and example.
or small pincers on nipples.
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA
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What Largo said! Yes, it seems like there is a segment of the climbing population that views putting up first ascents as a community service. That explains a lot of the "make it safe" or lowest common denominator comments on this and related threads.
Bruce
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goatboy smellz
climber
boulder county
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Climb more and sky walk less!
Less sky more and walk into the future and more climbing into the future.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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I think that a lot of the balking about the old run out routes comes from a selfidsh sense of entitlement that basically expects every route to conform to their (the balkers) terms, and if those terms were not met (risk proof pro), they, and all future generations have a right and moral responsibility to correct the "flaw." This is part of an overall shift to try and reduce all climbing to a merely physical endeavor, which to some of us seems like a pitiful dummying-down of he adventure. By no means is this ethic prosecuted across the board--note high water soloing and many other bold things coming down in today's climbing scene. But in some camps there's a push to standardize every route out there to be "safe," as though everything less is a crime against humanity and common sense. That seems totally amazing to me, especially considering that some of these routes mentioned are better than 30 years old. I first went to the Valley in '71 and if I would have felt obliged to start retrobolting routes that were established in the late 1930s, I would have fell totally ashamed.
JL
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Pain makes climber think
Thought makes climber wise
Time makes climber forget pain
Forgetfullness makes climber climb more painful routes
Repeat as needed.
Seems like Largo's post belongs in one of the related threads since this one is about intended runouts on rap routes.
and in that case, the reality is that the community decides what stands
Peace
Karl
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