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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 11, 2016 - 06:05am PT
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Thanks Clint.
Pretty rock. Someone should garden the crack.
Interesting that Sacherer rated this 5.10, one of only a few of his climbs he rated 5.10. Your description also supports the gossip that the route was desperate with Sacherer pulling up on weeds.
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Steve Grossman
Trad climber
Seattle, WA
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Sep 11, 2016 - 10:09am PT
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Middle Rock is SO not climbed out...
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Sep 11, 2016 - 11:03am PT
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I never heard Frank mention a rating of 5.10, only "hard 5.9".
It would be interesting to have a discussion on when and who originated 5.10 or maybe that thread already exists?
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jogill
climber
Colorado
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Sep 11, 2016 - 11:53am PT
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Good point, Jan. I was climbing in that era and I don't recall when I first heard "5.10".
I do remember Yvon and others from CA praising Frank's abilities!
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 11, 2016 - 02:12pm PT
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Hi Jan, Hope you are doing well. In 1967 (maybe 1968), Pratt wrote a concise list of updates on Yosemite climbing. It was mostly about Frank's new climbs and his all-free ascents of aid routes. I cannot find a copy of the actual text, but I am pretty sure that Chuck included the free ratings. I did find this summary that Steve Moyles posted in July 2010.
I don't think this contradicts Frank only talking about "hard 5.9," and not 5.10, but it shows Chuck's take on the ratings at the time. Chuck was the author of the Crack of Doom which was the first 5.10 in the Valley, so he would not have been shy about rating Frank's harder climbs 5.10.
They offer route descriptions similar to Roper's guides. I believe the
1967 Yosemite Notes is edited by Chuck Pratt. At the end of the
descriptions of the new routes, Pratt lists 25 climbs which had all the
aid eliminated from them, with brief description, date and attribution.
A paraphrased example: Reed's Pinnacle 5.10 Difficult jamming to the
right of the A4 crack.
Some of the new climbs listed had names different than their current ones,
such as Fredericks' Folly on Middle Cathedral Rock, and South Face,
Washington Column (the Bridwell/Faint route).
If anyone out in ST land has a copy of that Ascent, please scan and post it. It was a significant hinge point in redirecting new climbers to all-free climbing.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 12, 2016 - 03:24pm PT
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That's a nice piece in R&I. Unfortunately people who write these tributes are not necessarily cognizant of the history of the times. E.g.,
at a time when chalk, rock shoes, nuts and cams were as unknown as 5.11,
I introduced CA climbers in the Tetons to chalk in the mid and late 1950s, but some chose not to use it. We certainly had decent rock shoes - my PAs were excellent even though sticky rubber had not arrived. And the idea that Frank was somehow initiating a movement to free climbing may have been true in Yosemite, although I think I recall conversations I had with Chouinard before and during that period indicated an earlier trend in that direction.
Certainly the emphasis on free climbing was in bloom in other areas outside CA. Especially where the routes were short, like Devils Lake.
But I could be mistaken in my dotage. Oldtimers from that era should correct me if I'm in error.
None of the above is meant to disparage one of the finest American climbers ever.
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Sep 12, 2016 - 05:09pm PT
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First I've never heard that chalk was introduced to the Valley that early. None of the climbers I knew in the '60's were using it, thinking it was just for bouldering if they knew about it at all. Frank certainly never used it and never would have I'm sure.
As for Crack of Doom being 5.10, one of the reasons Frank would not call it 5.10 I'm sure, is that a girl (Bev Johnson) had climbed it. I remember Frank and Chuck Pratt saying back about 1968, that a few women could get up 5.9 on the Apron but no woman would ever climb a 5.9 crack. When Bev did the Crack of Doom and we got word of it in Europe, he went into a depressive funk for 3 days. He sure wasn't going to give her credit for doing a 5.10.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 12, 2016 - 05:34pm PT
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I think Pat Ament must personally have introduced climbers in Yosemite to chalk in the mid 1960s. Chouinard, Weeks, and others gave it a try on the slick pegmatite boulders in the Tetons earlier; Yvon chose not to use it. I can't recall whether Royal used it in the Needles of SD when he and I bouldered around. Tom Higgins and Rich Goldstone might clarify things a bit for that time period.
However, this is a side issue that is irrelevant to the thread.
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Sep 12, 2016 - 07:46pm PT
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Hi Jan,
I think that your assertion that somehow Bev climbing Crack of Doom affecting it's rating is severely telescoping time. The route was well established as the first 5.10 in Roper's 1964 guide; Bev's climbing in the Valley was well after that and she was not climbing in the Valley when Frank was climbing the routes we now all rate 5.10. So Frank's 5.9 ratings were articulated prior to Bev's climbing. However, your assessment that somehow girls' could not climb 5.10 was accurate for some climbers and it even spilled over into the 1970s a little. But Bridwell's notion (and Bridwell ruled ratings) of how to rate climbs on a consensus and comparative basis would not have taken a female ascent into account: a climb was rated in comparison to other climbs benchmarked to a specific grade. In any case, Jim never disparaged anyone's successes.
Hi John,
It seems to me your sense of the Rock and Ice's author conflating and jamming up changes in climbing attributes is correct. It is jarring to read bits that seem so jumbled. But my guess is that it does not matter that much to someone younger peering back so far--it is all sort of unfathomable history. (And we have the curse of having been young once, while the young cannot imagine ever being old.)
Regarding how Sacherer affected the tribe's sense of the relative importance of free climbing, I think the evidence is that in Yosemite, Sacherer's singular pivot away the norm of aid and free equality to a free-climbing only was unique: Sacherer moved the needle for younger climbers particularly in 1969 and 1970. I would also say that Sacherer followed your lead, so to speak, in focusing on hard free-climbing.
A notional way to characterize it is that while Royal, Chuck, Yvon and Tom were climbing the world's hardest aid climb, the North American Wall, in 1964, Sacherer put up 5 all free routes and climbed 12 aid routes all free: sort of an in-in-your-face statement for all of us, collectively, to reconsider the norm in Yosemite. In hindsight we did not catch-up to his sensibilities until the early 1970s.
Speaking of chalk, Yvon came to the Valley one year in the 70s and I tagged along for a mass assault of some nondescript crack. When it was my turn, I chalked up and noticed a commotion at the base: Yvon objected so he left. Never occurred to me that there was a difference of opinion prior to that. We were still friends.
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John Morton
climber
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Sep 12, 2016 - 08:36pm PT
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From Clint:
There were climbing shoes and nylon ropes in 1964....
He climbed lots of 5.10s that year.
Probably in Kronhofer shoes, which were not great for thin cracks,
but they were quite good for face climbing and friction.
I remember Frank as a fan of Spiders, known as an edging shoe. But Kronhofers might have been a better choice for a thin crack, because the Spider toes were hard and incompressible. Funny, I don't remember climbers picking a certain shoe for a certain climb in those days, too expensive to have two pair, I guess.
Beck and Erb will remember which shoes.
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AP
Trad climber
Calgary
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Sep 12, 2016 - 08:42pm PT
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So what would Frank be climbing if he were alive and 25 years old?
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TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
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Sep 12, 2016 - 09:36pm PT
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Interesting how my presence in the valley disappears...
Frank and I first climbed together when I led free the East Chimney of Rixons and he followed me up what he called harder than 5.9. Pratt and others couldn't follow us at the time.
Then Frank and I climbed The Slack together when the first pitch was still aided. We thought the pin scars might make it freeable. So we went back and worked on it. I was climbing in Wyoming when Frank went back and freed it. Shortly afterwards Royal went up and led it free and I followed it free after Frost backed off.
Royal and I also repeated Frank's free ascent of El Cap East Buttress. Liz was with us and used a few points of aid.
I think the route Frank and I put up on Glacier Point was the hardest either of us did.
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BLUEBLOCR
Social climber
joshua tree
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Sep 12, 2016 - 10:26pm PT
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this has rumbled into a great thread!
Thank you sirs.
history is so telling of the future:)
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Sep 12, 2016 - 11:52pm PT
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Tom,
I think the route Frank and I put up on Glacier Point was the hardest either of us did. I have a possible idea where the crux stemming corner is (a left facing corner, above Coonyard Pinnacle, but below The Oasis),
between 3 and 14 in this photo.
I just have to check it and if it matches your stemming description, then we'll have a fairly accurate location of the pitches for the guidbook.
The regular Coonyard to Oasis climbs the face above 3.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Sep 13, 2016 - 11:15am PT
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I didn't know Frank, either, but my long-time law partner, Wally Upton, climbed with him quite a bit in the early 1960's, and gave me a perspective that differed somewhat from the daredevilish reputation I had come to believe. Wally said that Frank simply believed that he could think his way up any climb.
I never heard Frank mention a rating of 5.10, only "hard 5.9".
Jan, I note that he and Beck rated the FFA of the DNB as 5.9, and he and Pratt rated the FFA of Lost Arrow also as 5.9, which conforms to your observation. They did rate the Sacherer-Fredericks "provisionally" 5.10, but required confirmation by a later ascent to be certain of the rating.
John
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Jan
Mountain climber
Colorado & Nepal
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Sep 13, 2016 - 11:37am PT
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Thanks for the remembrance John.
As I recall, we discussed in Europe in late 1969 or 1970 that 5.10 seemed to be a solid, well established grade by that time as noted by various California correspondents who kept us somewhat in touch with the Yosemite scene. I believe it was our brother-in-law John Morton who mostly wrote to us of the changes going on.
Having pronounced that no woman would climb a 5.9 crack and then having one climb a 5.10 was definitely depressing to Frank. He was not one to discuss feelings (men in general didn't during that era). On the other hand, he wasn't exactly subtle about his negative emotions as other stories from that era will attest, so yes, I can say he definitely was depressed over Bev's success which was following the Crack of Doom, not leading it, as far as I know.
In addition to his views on women climbers, I think he was in the situation of all top athletes whose achievements are surpassed by others younger than themselves. Frank always held himself to the highest standards so instead of focussing on how long he ruled free climbing in the Valley, he focussed on how soon his achievements were overcome by others in the early 1970's. Later, he went on to develop his skills at ice climbing to a high standard.
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jgill
Boulder climber
The high prairie of southern Colorado
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Sep 13, 2016 - 04:28pm PT
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Having pronounced that no woman would climb a 5.9 crack and then having one climb a 5.10 was definitely depressing to Frank
Like the observation from early British climbing: From test-piece to "an easy day for a lady".
Being only three years older than Frank I can remember attitudes from those times. I recall being surprised when a young female climber met me at the Jenny Lake boulders in 1958 and asked me to spot her as she tried a few problems . . . sadly to say, unsuccessfully, although I was very encouraging. At the time it was hard for me to imagine what was going to come to pass when, years later, eleven year-old girls would be able to scamper up my hardest problems.
At Devil's Lake at roughly that same time period there was a young lady who was a ballerina and who had wonderful balance and poise on some problems but lacked upper body strength. On the other hand my first meeting with Jan Conn in the late 1950s opened my eyes as she squirmed up tight cracks in the Black Hills Needles, rope trailing behind her. Earlier, her performances in the DC area along the Potomac had astounded a number of muscular men.
On the other hand when John Dietschy led the Irene of Irene's Arete on that first ascent in 1957 few eyebrows were raised, although at the time the climb was designated 5.8 -> 5.9. However, the world of rock climbing changed dramatically when the gymnast Lynn Hill made her debut two decades later. It was shortly after this that Pat Ament and I began joking about climbing eventually becoming women's gymnastics.
Lynn, at 5'2" and 110 pounds these days, is not much smaller than the reigning champion all-around Olympic male gymnast, Japanese, who is 5'3" and 121 pounds. Androgyny may be the future of both gymnastics and rock climbing.
Just a few rambling comments FWIW.
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hamie
Social climber
Thekoots
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Sep 14, 2016 - 01:23am PT
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I read somewhere that there were no photos of Frank climbing in the Valley. It was an interesting and pleasant surprise to see the 2 pix of him on Ahab. Are there any other Valley rock climbing shots?
Here is a shot of Frank belaying[not climbing]somewhere along the El Cap apron. He and his partner were attempting the FFA of something, perhaps La Escuela? They had a late start and ran out of time. Bridwell and I had done The Slack, so it was close to that climb. [JB led all the pitches.] Perhaps someone can id it. We grabbed a ride back to C4 with Frank. Better than walking.
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