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elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:16pm PT

Ahh, I think you got it backwards...

And for the record, Everest is a hike.

The gray area in between is called scrambling.

There is no arbitrary angle to differentiate between the two. Some of the scariest climbing I've done was on dirt, and I've hiked plenty of rock grades.

You have this whole thing worked up in your mind as much more than it really is. The angle is not a hard and fast determining factor of difficulty. I can name dozens of low angle climbs that are harder than overhanging ones.

Mimi

climber

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:29pm PT

I'll stop hammering you if you'll stop blathering. Did you miss what ECF wrote above? That was about right.

You spend an inordinate amount of time on this forum considering you're not a climber, but you've obviously done no homework to learn more about it. You'd rather be lazy and ask these stupid questions of the very people who've been very patient with you. Haven't several climbing books been recommended to you over the last year? You don't even have the courtesy to read them prior to asking these questions.

If you think as a non-climber you're going to start an intellectual exchange about the nuances of rock angle and what separates 4th class from 5th, you're dreaming.

Edit: Okay, maybe knott.

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:32pm PT

Yeah, I hunt and peck, so I try to keep it brief.

My point was that Everest is considered by the layman as "the ultimate climb", but if you are using your hands it is because you are on your knees puking.

Hikers consider scrambling as "extreme" and climbers see it as "light duty".

In search of a good definition for you, if you drop a bean bag at your feet on a climb it will fall to the base, if you're on a hike, it may roll a bit, but won't go all that far.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:34pm PT

LEB: I don't want to contribute to thread drift, or the Half Dome debate.

Whether or not something is climbing is not solely determined by the angle of the environment. Horizontal terrain almost never implies climbing - though I've seen photos of people in the Antarctic using ice axes to secure themselves when walking. In 200 kph winds.

Something vertical almost certainly implies climbing - although the via ferratas in Europe can in essence be sidewalks on vertical walls.

Somewhere in between is where climbing starts. To my mind, it is probably climbing if:
a) most people need to use both hands and feet to progress,
b) most people use some technical skill and equipment to progress and secure themselves, and
c) an unsecured person, if that person fell, is likely to fall a significant distance, and be injured or killed.

There aren't many climbs that are less than 30 degrees. Beyond that there's no hard and fast rule - shades of grey. Where does hiking become scrambling (unroped, moderate climbing), or scrambling become climbing? Many people die each year because they misjudge these things, and the implied risk.

I hiked up Half Dome for the first time on a Saturday in late September this year. The cables were a full on clusterf***. I was surprised to hear that they rescue more people on the Half Dome trail due to over exertion, even heart attacks, than they do people who fall off. No doubt many get dragged up by inertia and group dynamics - but the risks are very clear to anyone who thinks for even a moment.

Edit: I do consider bouldering to be part of climbing, though it doesn't quite fit the rough definition above.

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:46pm PT

Note it is a "climbing forum" and not a "climbers who know everything, already" forum.

Oh, I got a good chuckle out of that one...
I in no means mean to scare you off, but you do realize that a good number of the people on this forum are the elite of the climbing world. Sure there are lots of new guys, but the big guns of the sport are here, not at RC.com.

And I have to add that age is no excuse for not trying climbing. I have a few Fred Beckey stories that you just wouldn't believe, and he is older than my Grandfather.

Mighty Hiker

Social climber

Vancouver, B.C.

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:54pm PT

'Note it is a "climbing forum" and not a "climbers who know everything, already" forum.'

I wouldn't be so sure about that if I were you. There may be one or two SuperTopians who think they know everything, anyway.

Though there is an enormous amount of collective knowledge, perhaps even wisdom, on ST. Not just about climbing, either.

N0_ONE

Social climber

Utah

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:57pm PT

Mighty Hiker Said...
Somewhere in between is where climbing starts. To my mind, it is probably climbing if:
a) most people need to use both hands and feet to progress,
b) most people use some technical skill and equipment to progress and secure themselves, and
c) an unsecured person, if that person fell, is likely to fall a significant distance, and be injured or killed.

Pretty good, but then we need to include Canyoneering as Climbing!

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Nov 26, 2006 - 05:57pm PT

How's it go?
People who think they know everything annoy the heck out of those of us that do...

Mimi

climber

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:04pm PT

ECF/Anders, thanks for providing Lois with those straightforward descriptions.

Of course, this is a huge resource for learning. I haven't seen too many postings where everyone didn't join in to share their knowledge regardless of the experience levels.

Lois, if I wasn't familiar with your other postings on this forum, I would never have criticized your questions.

Largo

Sport climber

Venice, Ca

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:17pm PT

LEB:

My sense of this is that what we are looking at is a massive case of projection. You've identified youself as a certain kind of person with these values and things you cherish and so forth. The problem is with all of these identifications, you also have (we all have) opposite qualitires of equal power, but which are totally unconscious andwhich you project onto the folks on this site, letting them play out your shadow side at no risk to you. No harm in that, save that the longer you stay captive to your identified personality, the less edge your life will have and eventually you'll get fossilized in a comfort zone about two square inches wide--comforatable, but frozen in your comfort.

This is a climbing site and as such you'll always get challenged. There's hardly a thread I respond to here to which I don't get blasted, ridiculed, written off as a wanker and a poser. I expect nothing less. And I also listen to what folks have to say to keep my self-bullshit detector properly calibrated. Folks are basically calling bullshit on all your pat answers and excuses. In short, it's time to quit trying to mentalize all of this by quantifying angles and the use of hands and feet (so you can say you've alredy gone climbing and don't have to now).

Like they say, the best exercise for self mastery is to do something "you" don't want to do. Time to take back your projections, LEB. Enough of all this jibber jabber. Tie in and get on with it.

JL

WBraun

climber

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:19pm PT

Largo said: "Like they say, the best exercise for self mastery is to do something "you" don't want to do."

Ok, I will now get a gun and kill you ...... he he

Mimi

climber

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:19pm PT

LEB, you're absolutely right about not bothering to read some posts. Same goes for contributing to a bad thread. I was actually reading what Largo wrote when I noticed your question and I suddenly felt compelled to chime in.

The focus was really on why you refuse to go climbing, even at a gym.

WBraun

climber

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:29pm PT

Oh, give it up, Lois is not the type, never will be in this lifetime. Some people are happy not being climbers.

Anything wrong with that?

Next life I'm not going to climb, I'll come back here and terrorize all you people .......

Mimi

climber

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:35pm PT

LOL! WB, you are a big tease. First, you say how you're gonna spill your beans about the bolt chopping and now how you're gonna come back and plague us in the next life. Perhaps not so benevolent afterall, eh?

Nothing wrong with Lois not climbing. It's just something about that voyeuristic thing and armchair living.

Edit: Werner, are you the punk ass fool of tomorrow or the futuristic utility dolt?

N0_ONE

Social climber

Utah

Nov 26, 2006 - 06:46pm PT

LEB, Obviously I don't know you from reading these posts, but this is my empression.

You are older than me, you are loving life and you have done your fare share of wilderness exploration but you don't consider yourself a climber.

I wonder if your like a friend of mine. He grew up exploring the desert in and around Zion and knows it very well. He's done all the harder and most of the easy canyons in zion and many others in the southwest. When I met him he was not a climber, in his mind, but I knew better! He could get around the desert as good as anyone! Up, down around, through! He even carries ropes (for rappeling, not protecting a leader). In my opinion he's more climber than someone who only clips bolts. I'm teaching him to place gear and a few other climbing specific things but beyond that, exploring his suroundings in the manner he saw fit is what tought him to climb. He's following me with ease up 5.10 and 5.11 FA's and feeling right at home.

Am I even close?

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 26, 2006 - 07:04pm PT

Well, it's a climbing forum but we always don't talk about climbing do we? I haven't read this thread but I noticed there are a lot of posts so I figured it couldn't just be about congratulating someone. That would be too positive for a lot of posts.

Could we talk about surfing instead? I hear it's harder than climbing. Can you do it in a lake or do you need the ocean? How do you stay up with that board just bobbing around?

Folks like to talk about sex a lot. I've never had it cause I'm a geek and I hear it's messy but some say that it's super fun. What's an orgasm feel like? I heard that your muscles get all contracted and then relaxed and you make noises like you're climbing?

I suppose I could try it but I'd rather listen to folks argue about it.

;-)

Karl

elcapfool

Big Wall climber

hiding in plain sight

Nov 26, 2006 - 07:08pm PT

Underwater basket weaving, now that is the shizzle...

Karl Baba

Trad climber

Yosemite, Ca

Nov 26, 2006 - 08:03pm PT

Yeah, I guess there are guys surfing the great lakes too and you can surf the wake of a supertanker for miles without end.

I just realized (still without reading the whole thread) that I was mentioned up higher.

I'd take Lois climbing for free if Largo comes along! That would make for a nice illustrated trip report (that Ouch could help us with)

I'm absolutely positive we'd get along great because in dozens of years climbing, I've never failed to get along with anyone. We're all humans at the root of it and almost nobody intends harm or malice. That said, I'm extra hard on Lois cause she has the knowledge and awareness to do better than she does and God has personally appointed me as a helper in her process.

It's Karma baby. You spend all this time on a climbing forum. Go take a one day class or get guided close to home. Learn what it's like to go from speculation to direct knowledge. It would be virtually risk free and taylored to your capability and would make for a great posting. DO IT!

Peace

karl