Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Matt's
climber
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 03:55pm PT
|
yup, was at the needles, on atlantis, over the fourth... and I didn't fall, at least on the first two pitches... but in general i tend to climb things where i don't think i'm gonna fall (for better or worse).
I did see nathanael's partner take a big whipper on thin ice (right at the crux).
|
|
Scole
Trad climber
Zapopan
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 03:56pm PT
|
What next? Next thing you know people will be putting bolts in on rappel
|
|
cat t.
climber
california
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 04:07pm PT
|
When I fell on Thin Ice (which was more than once, oops), I put in a nut while forlornly hanging so that I could return my precious Totems to my harness when I started moving again. My follower was not pleased. ETHICS POLICE, come and get me.
My bet is that while the "average" climber may be more risk averse, the substantial increase in total number of climbers means that there are, in fact, more "bold" climbers now there ever have been. This. There are just WAY more people out there.
|
|
Rankin
Social climber
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 04:16pm PT
|
If you bolt it they will come.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 04:31pm PT
|
Matt, I agree with you that more and more "climbers" are risk-averse, such that "climbing" has become more and more like gymnastics, with the "rock" (or, more likely, the plastic) as apparatus.
Some of you will know the Trough route at Big Rock. Easy, although a bit run-out 5.4.
I used to boulder with this guy at Corona Del Mar. He could do all the hardest problems there, quite a few harder than I could. I used to think, "I wonder if this guy ever ropes up, because he'd be incredible a JTree, etc."
One day we got together at Big Rock, and he told me that he'd never actually led a climb. So I suggested the Trough, which, at 5.4, I thought would be an absolute walk-up for the guy.
No joy. Between the first and second bolts he was sketching, losing every bit of form he used to have as muscle memory, and moaning about dying. I literally could not calm the guy. He finally sketched his way to the second bolt, clipped, and demanded lower. I complied.
That was going to be the end of the day for him, but I talked with him to see if he'd be interested in at least top-roping it to see what the lead would have been like. He was game, so I led it and brought him up. He was talking the whole time about how he never could have led it.
Yikes! Seriously? Okay, to my mind, once you take all elements of risk out of the activity, it's no longer climbing. It might be hang-dogging, training, a work-out, or whatever. But if your "climbing" is never in some risk, such that the mental elements never come into play (you know, grace under pressure), then you're not climbing; I don't care what the "grade" is.
Hard bouldering is respectable in its own right, as is "sport climbing." But to my mind (for what that's worth), only when thought of like gymnastics, which is indeed very hard and respectable in its own right. Games like Ninja Warrior are impressive also. But this stuff isn't "climbing" per se, imho. Until you add in the mental game of performance while in risk, you're not strictly-speaking climbing.
So, I have no problem with the stick-clipping game as red-point training or for all sorts of other reasons, as long as the route isn't being altered. My concern is only that people are being honest (with themselves and others) about what they are seeking and the "game" they are playing. Even stick-clipping aid climbs to later come back and genuinely lead them is just fine by me, as long as people are honest.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 05:59pm PT
|
OK, I do get to Smith on occasion and there is a propensity for hard core folks to clip bolts 20 feet off the deck when they don't want to eat dirt there, but I still don't know what is the preferred stick clip brand these days. I think I'll get one.
Anyone advise?
|
|
Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 06:29pm PT
|
I still don't know what is the preferred stick clip brand these days.
Dunno, but once you've "got the rope up there" I recommend the wraptor:
http://www.wesspur.com/ascenders/wraptor.html
You'll send that proj in no time and be drinkin' and tellin' stories earlier than the old dayz when real men nailed 5.8
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 06:37pm PT
|
If you can't climb, don't fake it; stick clips don't make it.
Couldn't help myself. :)
|
|
Rock!...oopsie.
Trad climber
the pitch above you
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 06:50pm PT
|
spoken like a fossilized luddite, johntp. I'll be three beers in when you hit the chains, brah.
|
|
johntp
Trad climber
socal
|
|
|
Jul 11, 2016 - 08:53pm PT
|
spoken like a fossilized luddite, johntp. I'll be three beers in when you hit the chains, brah.
I'm not your brah. So you stick clip? No wonder you will be 3 beers in.
I was just kidding. Fossilized? Not quite yet.
My post was just a parody of "if you can't ski, don't fake it, short skis don't make it".
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 11, 2016 - 11:43pm PT
|
I'll be three beers in when you hit the chains, brah.
ProTip: You can get the beers in faster absorbing them anally. Have your belayer assist you with a beer bong back on the ground after lowering. Really saves time might even get to that fourth beer.
Madbolter
words are like accessories more isn't better more is just more.
|
|
mcreel
climber
Barcelona
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 12:25am PT
|
So, stick clips are an essential safety procedure when the first pro is a bolt, but what about those routes where you have to make sketchy moves above an uneven rocky landing, with the first gear placement more than 10' up? Has anyone invented a stick for placing cams? Some dirtball used-to-be engineer should invent one of those, and make a mint. Don't forget the optional selfie attachment, and drone launch pad, though.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 12:38am PT
|
words are like accessories more isn't better more is just more
Ah, okay. Got it. No stories. That's more words.
Okay, what I was trying to say was just this:
Climbing.
There. You get it now that it's not too many words to comprehend? Sorry to have muddied my earlier message with more words than the one.
Some might think that one word a bit vague all by itself. But more isn't better, so one should be enough.
After all, astute readers can get the full and accurate intended meaning with just one. Denser readers might need one or two more.
I see that you yourself employed a few more than that in your instructions. I guess that you thought of your target audience as even denser. Oh, that was me. I'll try to process that one. Might take some time, me being that dense and all.
Not sure where the line is, but apparently I crossed it. My bad.
My only confusion is that you've made far more than twice as many posts as me in a shorter time-frame. Is the rule that more posts are better, as long as each one tries to stay true to the one-word mark? I'm not sure what the rule is supposed to be.
Anyway, from now on, just: Climbing. (Oh, and that will have the unintended side-effect of making all of my posts "climbing related.")
Oops, already slipping. This "just the correct number of words" bit is really tough, I'm finding. It will take practice. I might not get it right immediately.
So sorry that I ever disturbed your sensibilities with too many. I'll seriously attempt to do better, since less is better, so I'm told.
Climbing.
|
|
healyje
Trad climber
Portland, Oregon
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 01:24am PT
|
My bet is that while the "average" climber may be more risk averse, the substantial increase in total number of climbers means that there are, in fact, more "bold" climbers now there ever have been.
However many 'bold' climbers there are, they are a vanishingly small percentage of the total demographic which is now highly risk-averse. And one only needs to see the bolt spacing at Planet Granite to know where this is all headed. If kids get used to that bolt spacing they'll be retrobolting all the sport venues thinking the early sportos were out of their minds. In general, the more risk-averse the general demographic, the more pressure there will be to retrobolt and otherwise alter the rock.
One day we got together at Big Rock, and he told me that he'd never actually led a climb.
I know a couple of people here who boulder V7 indoors and dislike roped climbing of any kind and entirely dislike outdoor climbing on rocks.
but I still don't know what is the preferred stick clip brand these days. I think I'll get one.
Trust me, he may never use one or only use it a couple of times, but once he's in he never gets just one of anything. If they open a sport climbing museum in twenty years they'll be coming to couchmaster for a stick clip collection.
|
|
Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 03:23am PT
|
The logical progression for the stick-clip set is probably to increase the number of bolts, because their goal is to avoid the risk of falling, especially long distances. Adding bolts to existing routes alters them and affects other climbers.
But, that is the trend these days.
After hundreds of thousands of climbers have resisted the urge to retrobolt routes to make them easier, a small handful of self-professed "progressive" climbers are now retrobolting many routes in Yosemite and elsewhere.
Disorderly conduct has a "Tequila Straw" move that involves using a stick to stuff a cam (an Alien?) into a roof crack.
The "Lovetron" move on Scorched Earth involves a hook on the end of a long tent pole. The target is a blind edge, and it is easy to grab a nearby one that is not as good.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 08:04am PT
|
Say, Richard, maybe the slick as snot aspect of The Trough messed with your friend's head. Did you try to get him to lead something more reasonable later?
|
|
GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jul 12, 2016 - 08:39am PT
|
We should party together bro....
We might have already I tend to black out : /
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 08:52am PT
|
You are sure right about the "slick as snot" bit! Yeah, after he calmed down, I tried to get him back up, like on Puppy Dog. But he was too frazzled. He told me that he was actually having premonitions of death. He departed shortly thereafter.
I mean, I'm sympathetic. When you're new to leading, the mind really plays games. Most of us here have probably forgotten how alien it all initially felt.
As Tom and Joe say, it's probably a huge majority of climbers now that are really "gymnasts" and don't think that "real falls" have any place in "climbing." So, they will never go through the mind games of gaining genuine confidence and (dare I say?) courage. I really think that's a loss of opportunity for them. But, to each his/her own.
As long as they don't alter existing routes! If stick-clipping keeps them from doing that, more power to 'em.
|
|
Coach37
Social climber
Philly
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 09:36am PT
|
Stick clips have led to less bolts, if anything, not more. I can think of multiple areas, with hundreds of pitches, that were bolted specifically with the idea of stick clipping the first or second bolt. That allows placing the first bolt way off the deck.
Placing that first bolt high does a few things. It reduces vandalism/hanger theft; reduces total bolt count, reduces visual impacts to non-climbers by having first bolts higher and therefore less visible.
|
|
couchmaster
climber
|
|
|
Jul 12, 2016 - 09:37am PT
|
Quote:"Trust me, he may never use one or only use it a couple of times, but once he's in he never gets just one of anything. If they open a sport climbing museum in twenty years they'll be coming to couchmaster for a stick clip collection. "
Haha! So true, but like you, I much prefer crack climbing unless it's a super long multipitch like Crest Jewel so although the stick clip request was genuine (thanks for the tip 5.30) I might not give Stephan a run for his money on stockpiling this gear. Does he even collect stick clips for his Museum?
"However many 'bold' climbers there are, they are a vanishingly small percentage of the total demographic which is now highly risk-averse. And one only needs to see the bolt spacing at Planet Granite to know where this is all headed. If kids get used to that bolt spacing they'll be retrobolting all the sport venues thinking the early sportos were out of their minds. In general, the more risk-averse the general demographic, the more pressure there will be to retrobolt and otherwise alter the rock."
It seems inevitable to me as well for the very same reasons, then a gym rat kid like Honnold comes around and shatters that thought. He's not alone either they're all over the place, was watching some super strong young gym kids free solo big hard highballs. They were getting pounded in the falls too....they could have easily walked around and put a rope on it but didn't.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!