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Standing Strong
Mountain climber
dancin' on the hood while the car's still rollin'
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Nov 18, 2006 - 02:53pm PT
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WORD. PEOPLE'S VIEWPOINTS SHOULD BE DYNAMIC LIKE ROPES.
p.s. dear climbing rags,
pls. publish my photo TR with the cartoons.
TIA,
t*star
p.p.s. you should do a reality-show like feature modeled after mtv's "made". pick a mediocre climber like oh, say, ME, and send them to a six week climbing bootcamp and cover it in your mag.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Nov 18, 2006 - 03:08pm PT
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If the mags were as well writen and seemingly sincere as your post, Drew, the majority of climbers might not have turned their collective back on them.
"That's because we're a small family owned operation and we can't afford to put out a bad product that no one will like."
Back to the drawing board.
Every issue is almost completely forgetable, it didn't use to be that way. Nobody is going to be reminicising twenty years from now about some current article like they do about, say Pumping Sandstone. well, maybe the stonemaster deal.
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HighDesertDJ
Trad climber
Arid-zona
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Nov 18, 2006 - 03:14pm PT
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I think Largo really nailed it as well. It's hard to have an epic adventure story about the 5.14 you just rapbolted, prehung perma-draws on, scrubbed clean and then dogged like a madman. The two most prolific rags, R&I/Climbing are very much for-profit endevaors. I personally won't fault them for chasing the dollars, but as has already been stated they have clearly gone from representing climbers to selling to people want to identify themselves as climbers.
My father, a beautfiul man, subscribed to Backpacker for years because he wanted to think of himself as a backpacker. He spent oodles of money on the latest gear, played with it at home plenty and almost never actually went backpacking.
As a teenager I lived and died with each issue of R&I/Climbing because I was isolated from any form of climbing community. I learned technique, style and ethics from reading the rags and I read every word of every article on every page. As I stopped trying to identify myself as a "climber" and did a lot more actual climbing my interest on those media have waned. I like hearing about the latest "hard" thing, but that's not worth much more than a skim at the checkout line and most of the time I'm just looking for pictures of people I know.
I think the web is clearly ripe for a blogish new form of climbing literature. The wonderful and horrible thing about the web is that you both get the privilege of and the burden of listening to everyone have an opinion about everything. Still, a smart person with the right motivation could forge something new, real and truly about climbers instead of those who are trying to look like climbers.
People are also overlooking the fact that the amount of media has transformed what we all pay attention to. The diversification of the internet means that there aren't just 2 magazines to be reading anymore. Every climber can post a trip report with pictures, videos etc and they are often about climbs or adventures that NEVER would make it into the rags. Why? Because nobody wants to pay $5 to read about someone's generally unevenful ascent of the Zodiac, but we WILL spend ten minutes watching someone's video TR about it for free.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Nov 18, 2006 - 10:34pm PT
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Occasionaly I write book reviews for The Mags.
This has nothing do to with that.
I think the graphically cluttered look of the current style does the content a great disservice; it reminds me of our hectic, overdetermined 21st century media-saturation. What I look to climbing for, most of the time, is to get away from all that.
For this reason, I love Jeff Jackson's piece on Sharma swimming out to the arch, making a sandwich, and falling off. Nice job!
Perhaps it's no accident that this article looks like the Alpinist. Maybe the pendulum is swinging back. Or maybe the magazine people themselves are tired of feeling like they had one cup of coffee too many, are late for work, the phone is ringing, and they're missing Lost. About time.
Pretty much any writing about climbing will work for me if it's about stoke. It's harder when it's about the stoke of some genetic wunderkind who's only stoked about 3-move problems, but if it's in there, they've got a chance with me. Suffering, fear, and perserverance are up there with stoke as well. Fully sponsored clown shows like the stuff that tends to end up in National Geographic don't really work for me. I prefer a grittier reality, but that's just me.
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mooser
Trad climber
seattle
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Nov 19, 2006 - 01:23am PT
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This comment is related to the thread, but not exactly to the tenor of the bulk of the posts. While I have hesitations about some of the developments in both mags since I began reading them ('75 for Climbing, and whenever the first issue of R&I came out), I still wait for both with anticipation. My brother was trying to make it through a lung transplant, following a long battle with leukemia, and then a related lung condition. The best day my brother had in the ICU at Stanford was when I brought him the latest issue of Climbing. My little brother took a cell phone snapshot of him sitting in a chair reading it, and I passed it on to Climbing just to let them know how their mag had cheered him up. They then not only posted a quarter-page get well message in the next issue (which, unfortunately, came out just a few days after his death), but they also sent him a care package with all kinds of stuff just to encourage him.
I emailed them and let them know he'd died, in case they had time to alter the final copy. They said it was too late for that, but even if they could, they'd leave it in on the chance it might be an encouragement to someone else as well. John was a relative nobody in the climbing world (except that he shared the passion we all know), but their kindness and thoughtfulness blew my mind. A few days ago, I received an email from their production manager, wondering how I was doing a year later. I couldn't believe that she'd remembered it, and that she'd take the time to send me such a kind message.
Like I said, this doesn't relate too closely to the bulk of the postings on this thread, but I'll be fan of Climbing for a long time.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Nov 19, 2006 - 02:40am PT
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John:
"Without the risk and the big themes you’re left with people simply yarding their way up the rock."
"Simply yarding your way up the rock" is significantly more difficult than the way you say it. In sport climbing and bouldering you can't hide behind the guise of mental toughness and pyschological strength; you have to try hard. An average El Cap ascent takes a third of the climbing time as a send of Midnight Lightning.
The writing in the mags hasn't reached the level where it can explore the depths of "simple yarding". Cranking in writing and climbing takes commitment but someone will be able to articulate the "big themes" of the more gymnastic forms of climbing.
p.s. "po mo" is straight from the Hipter's handbook.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Nov 19, 2006 - 10:04am PT
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5.12 sport climbers are a dime a dozen, 5.12 trad climbers are rare and note worthy-- and not because there are too few hard trad climbs.
Now what is 5.12 trad exactly? it's a little like V 4,5,6 bouldering in terms of the crux difficulty, but that is a poor and inadequate way to look at the subject. I know some V9 boulderers who absolutely will not lead anything, and one will not boulder higher than about 12-15 feet off the ground. There's nothign wrong with that either, and they have a great attitude about the sport. IF THOSE guys ever feel the urge to seriously take up trad, look out.
Up the challenge to multi pitch trad, and find even fewer doing really hard stuff.
Up the level to previously unclimbed rock done free, now who cares about the grade as long as you get up the thing in one piece?
People typically sport several levels higher than they trad for a reason.
Technical achievment in a safe environment is just not interesting in the same way or to the same degree as adventure and the unknown-- which can also demand a high degree of technical ability along with requiring mental skills.
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Indianclimber
climber
Las Vegas
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Nov 19, 2006 - 10:50am PT
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The problems with the magazines is that they are not informative
as we have read it all already on the internet without having to wait a month . As has been stated before on this thread the
articles don't always have that personal flavor that a great
TR has, even if it's not in a far away land.
The things to me that make a good read are the things that get left
out ,the banter between climbing buddys the bloopers that happen
on any trip, the celebrations after.
Maybe on some level it's because I can envision myself in these
situations
Just my 2cents
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 19, 2006 - 01:06pm PT
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"Cranking in writing and climbing takes commitment but someone will be able to articulate the "big themes" of the more gymnastic forms of climbing."
And what might those be, James?
And btw, "po-mo" was a slang literary term before the Hipster series was ever published.
JL
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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Nov 19, 2006 - 01:10pm PT
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An interesting discussion from a very odd point of view, that is a pov of a bunch of people who actually write: members of the Forum.
A lot of stuff get's written here, some of it truely spontaneous, some of it worked on hard, some of it worked on so hard that it appears spontaneous, and other hard work that is just good. I have to say that from the little I actually know of John Long the person, he has been as serious a writer as you could imagine. While part of being a writer is having a story to tell, actually telling the story you want to tell takes craft, and craft takes hard work. John has worked hard, and we can all appreciate that.
You know that too, James, you work hard on a lot of your stuff. I thought the reference to the "Hipster's handbook" was a pretty low blow...
But back to the topic... of course people who actually communicate by both writing and reading, such as the avatars who haunt the ST Forum, would find the mags lacking, simply because they are intended for those who, for the most part, only look and read. By all accounts, there is an entire world of phantom lurkers out there who do only that on ST Forum. On occasion we get a "letter to the editor" from one of them... "I'm just a lurker, but I had to respond..." but I am sure that many of us actually enjoy working on some piece of writing for the ST Forum. How demented is that?!
We all have criticism of the mags, call it slander if you like, but I doubt we would agree that they should disappear. And anyway, if we really do think the quality of the writing has gone to hell, why aren't we writing the superior literature we wish for and getting it published there?
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jstan
climber
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Nov 19, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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John and Ed have pretty well summed it up. Writing is hard work. So hard I have conditioned myself, whenever I thoughtlessly pick up a pencil, immediately to break it in half. I submit for your ecomium some writing from 1973. Coming as it did before the miraculous and unpredicted resolution of the bolting and other questions, you all must forgive Steve his errors. Please consider only his craft.
(jstan edit: Since the discussion regarding bolting has,to my knowledge never been resolved anywhere, I thought it safe here to speak facetiously. Steve's extremely interesting use of what I would call oblique viewpoint makes it clear to this observer at least, why we haven't been successful.)
Cruising Across Twelfth Street
Steve Wunsch
Eastern Trade – 1973
Those colored lights are difficult to turn off. You can try drink or drugs, but they merely dim; the effects of fatigue or marital difficulties (even in combination) are little better; a solo fall (or jump) from High Exposure would do it, but be mighty risky. What if those theories about the final fragment lasting an eternity were true! It would be filled with screaming RED, bellowing BLOODRED howls, the greenery (or even autumn variegated) at the bottom notwithstanding. On the other hand, I suppose that a conscientiously applied program of fixed protection and regular professional care could eliminate all but gentle green, caressing green, to soothe the mind and relax the sewing machine. Yes, that would do it. Imagine cruising all the way across twelfth street with nothing but green lights; you would certainly turn around to do it again. And even if they did not actually turn off, you would soon tend not to notice…..
But seriously now this is about rock climbing, a sport which, as if it were not inherently dangerous enough, appears in danger of extinction by exhaustion. The rock is crumbling from piton scars, pitons are disappearing from ethical scars, ethics are being trampled by safety nuts, and nuts are becoming too safe to be ethical. (Pardon me Frog’s Head victim, but you should take comfort in hearing that pitons are also too safe, as are trees larger than an inch in diameter, double fisherman’s knots, quality controlled crampon points, new rope, three point contact, and even swing moves when an all out lunge would do the trick. I sympathize with you, knowing something of the tyranny of the lights myself. I can imagine the sharp yellow when you placed the suspicious nut, the stabbing red when you knew you were about to fall on it. I remember once a knifeblade upside down under a thin flake….. and another once third classing Easy O when it started to rain…But this parenthesis could become as endless as the lights themselves.)
“Safety First” is a fine motto, but following it out of the womb reveals the hypocracy. “The paramount ethic, the “preservation of risk” sounds pretty good too, but I think even Ken Wilson wouldn’t wait for bad weather to try the Eiger. Are we headed for a Golden Mean? Perhaps another pundit’s considered opinion can help us out. Steve Roper, in his now classic discussion of bolting ethics (which appeared in the first Yosemite guide) would have us compare Salathe’s style in placing a twelve bolt ladder to the tip of the Lost Arrow, to that turkey (he must have been a short bastard!) who defaced the rock by interspersing five bolts to make a seventeen bolt travesty of a fine twelve bolt ladder. Certainly such a mockery of rock climbing is sinful. Someone must draw the line somewhere. Just as that twilight zone between 5.10 and 5.11 must be eliminated (four bolts placed on rappel should do it), some accord must be reached regarding ethical and unethical protection. Wilson roperesquely recommends ridicule for those who would place more pitons than himself. It is unethical to overcome red lights on Broken Sling with four or five pitons, but ethical with one. This clear distinction must be understood and driven home in the guidebook which should standardize the number of pitons and/or aid for a given climb. This method of preserving risk moreover discourages exhibitionists like McCarthy who are intent on “first free ascent” recognition. It might even keep the piton scars down. Anyway what else can you do with a hopeless situation.
May I suggest the following perversion of valuable priorities:
1. Where pitons (or nuts) are justified, justice is the sorest loser.
2. Where nuts (or pitons) are most difficult to place is often where you need them the most, so get your fear off its ass before you get hurt.
3. Where success and failure appear equally probable, it is the sole responsibility of the Carriage Road Kibbitzer to decide whether ridicule or advice would be the most annoying.
4. Where are the Gunks anyway?
5. Forget whatever you think I am trying to say.
Copyright Eastern Trade
(For those younger than fifty years of age, the Trade was (briefly) a newsletter available free to two groups of people. Those who had no money, and those who felt the newsletter was not worth anything. The discussion as to which group formed the majority was never successfully resolved.)
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Roger Breedlove
climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Nov 19, 2006 - 07:30pm PT
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Uhh, John, we use computers now, not pencils. Heehe.
I think I get number 5, finally. Heehe**2
Roger
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Ain't no flatlander
climber
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Nov 20, 2006 - 10:34am PT
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Why should anyone expect more than amateur writing when the mags only pay amateur rates? As others have pointed out, writing is hard work that can take a lot of time for a few well-crafted words. Anyone who makes a living as an author can't afford to work for the rates R&I and Climbing pay. Sure some (like Largo) get a higher word rate but those are the rare exceptions and even then they do it more for fun than paying bills...especially since you're lucky to see a check until a half year after the work is actually completed. Hence the mags will remain the province of wannabe freelancers who are breaking into the market. Once they have sufficient talent, they are forced to move on.
Claiming that R&I reviews aren't biased by advertisers is a a joke considering the blatant slam of the Trango cams a few months after they pulled their advertising.
And who was the bloody moron that decided to increase the paper size of R&I? Screwed up numerous collections just so you can claim you aren't like the other mag, as if. Chopping down more trees so you can increase ad rates doesn't say much for environmental ethics.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 20, 2006 - 11:00am PT
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I get out an old copy of Mountain and reignite old passions.
Too true Ed.
EDIT
But you're right--a skilled writer can work wonders with most anything.
I agree John, but I 'd like to add that a skilled editor, copy editor, sub-editor can turn good copy into sparkling copy. For the most part, everybody needs an editor, or at least an objective eye to cast over their work.
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James
climber
A tent in the redwoods
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Nov 21, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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John,
The "big themes" of bouldering and sport climbing are similar to those of trad but magnified. In bouldering there's a need for high intensity. You have to crimp hard, ignore the blood on the hold, and lock it off lower. How Hard Can You Try is the name of the game.
In sport climbing, the "big theme" is composure. Maintaining your calm as your elbows point to the sky and your hands open requires as cool of a mind as being desperately run out. Different games, same temperature.
In your article Free Will in Yosemite Climber by George Meyers,
you said "The most precious summits are those gained at a psychological price." In both bouldering and sport climbing there is a theme of failure. I hike to Jailhouse hoping for a paycheck. 95% of the time I leave with thoughts of "if only." Success doesn't come without countless falls. There's a need to return to the crag and face failure again and again and again. It's a large pyschological price that weighs heavily but makes the mantle or clipping the chains that much sweeter.
These themes are inherent in trad climbing but it is difficult to push all your boundaries at once. The bolts allow the need for compsure to be magnified and the short distance to the ground allows one to "get pysched" to send.
P.S. Po-Mo may be old school slang but it still makes you deck as 'ef. Next thing you know you'll have a copy of Carver's Cathedral on your coffee table and you'll be getting schellacked on Pabst, the best domestic beer in a can. Hipster.
Ed- It wasn't an insult. Being a hipster means being culturally aware. I think it's a compliment. John, I apologize if it was misconstrued.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 22, 2006 - 03:06am PT
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"self-absorbed doldrums of post-moderninsm"
Wasn't Twight doing this kind of writing?
What would a po-mo style be like? Hard to describe ahead of time otherwise it would follow tradition, no?
A factor to a po-mo adventure climbing lit might be the lack of grand meta-narratives about fear and epic porportion. (cf. Lyotard)
Could their be a unique way to talk about the po-mo sport culture that gives it meaning and substance without slandering it using the signifier of the tradition?
Probably not, but a fractured series of narratives from every'man' story telling, would be po-mo start.
Even the very definition of post modern requires the "modern" to distinguish itself.
Courage. That is what is needed.
To know and bury in the psyche the past, but write in a new way that says 'If people think I butcher Roper's writing, then I don't care.' not an inversion of values in writing, but revaluation of what we value in writing.
Sinclair's description of the speeding up process. The first person narrative of the Catcher in the Rye. The meshing of story and unanswered questions of the Matrix. outstanding and ouside the usual.
To say "All your blocs are belong to choss" after a good day at Pinnacles pulling down mudrails. More noble in the mind to suffer alone? Realize that more consciousness is not necessarily wanted because it makes cowards of all of us. Keep asking Andrew, some brave soul will eventually step up and delight us all.
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Patrick Sawyer
climber
Originally California now Ireland
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Nov 22, 2006 - 08:14am PT
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There is a relatively new British magazine, Climb, that is pretty good.
But Mountain and Ascent are (were) still tops.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Nov 22, 2006 - 12:51pm PT
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My comments follow . . .
Mungeclimber wrote:
"self-absorbed doldrums of post-moderninsm"
Wasn't Twight doing this kind of writing?
YOU’RE PROBABLY RIGHT ABOUT THAT—PERHAPS THAT’S PART OF THE REASON FOR HIS POPULARITY.
What would a po-mo style be like? Hard to describe ahead of time otherwise it would follow tradition, no?
IMO, PO-MO IS LARGELY PLAYED OUT, HENCE IT HAS ALREADY ESTABLISHED IT’S OWN TRADITION. PO-MO IS NO LONGER PLAYING OFF MODERNISM, IF THAT’S THE “TRADITION” YOU SPEAK OF. REMEMBER, MODERNISM IS OVER A CENTURY OLD, IF YOU GO BACK TO THE ROOTS, WITH BAUDELAIRE IN LIT., MANET IN PAINTING, AND MAYBE FALUBERT IN SHORT FORM FICTION AS WELL..
A factor to a po-mo adventure climbing lit might be the lack of grand meta-narratives about fear and epic porportion. (cf. Lyotard)
IN WRITING, I THINK OF PO-MO IN A CERTAIN WAY, NOT ESPECIALLY EASY TO DEFINE, SINCE MOST EVERYONE DESCRIBES IT WITH SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT CRITERIA. ONE OF THE MORE INTERESTING PO-MO IDEAS IS THAT CLASSICIC NARRATIVE STRUCTURING IS A FALSE IMPOSITION ON MODERN LIFE ITSELF, WHICH RARELY FEATURES THE FLUID, COMPREHENSIVE SEQUENCING WE FIND , SAY, IN GREEK STORY ARCHETECTURE. LIFE, THE IDEA GOES, IS DISCONNECTED, RANDOM AND CHAOTIC, AND THE PIECES AND EVENTS RARELY IF EVER FIT TOGETHER IN A NEAT, NARTRATIVE SEQUENCE. TO ORGANIZE THEM SUCH IS A CONTRIVANCE.
I TEND TO AGREE WITH THIS IDEA, BUT THERE ARE EVENTS WITHIN THE CHAOS THAT ACTUALLY DO HAVE AT LEAST THE BARE BONES OF CLASSICAL STRUCTURE, AND ONE OF THEM IS A BIG CLIMB. HERE, YOU HAVE A DEFINITIVE BEGINNING, MIDDLE AND END WHICH ARE IMPOSED BY THE CLIMB ITGSELF, NOT BY THE WRITER. IN THIS SENSE, BIG CLIMBS ARE A PERFECT VEHICLE FOR BIG THEMES, CLASSICALLY RELATED. ADD HUGE RISK, AND YOU’RE RIGHT BACK TO HOMER.
IMO, “CLASSIC” STORY STRUCTURE IS AN OUTGROWTH OF ADVENTURES THAT FOLKS ONCE EXPERIENCED. ON A BROADER SCOPE, LIFE ITSELF FEATURES THE CLASSICAL STRUCTURE OF BEGINNING, MIDDLE AND ENDING, SINCE WE ARE BORN, WE LIVE AND WE DIE. IT’S THAT SECOND ACT—THE LIVING—WHERE ALL THE MEAT IS, AND IT’S ALSO HUGELY DISORGANIZED AS WELL, AND THAT’S WHERE PO-MO MAKES IT’S MOST VALID POINT ABOUT STRUCTURING.
THE ISSUE OF EMOTIONAL TONE, AND THE GLUM, PO-MO RESIGNATION OF EVERYONE STANDING AROUND BASICALLY WAITING FOR GODOT, IS ANOTHER ISSUE THAT HAS GOTTEN PRETTY STALE BECAUSE, TO ME, IT’S FUNDAMENTALLY FALSE, AS THOUGH THERE’S A VIABLE CHIC FACTOR RELATED TO NIHILISM. JAMES DEAN DID THIS TO DEATH FORTY YEARS AGO. THIS IS JUST PEOPLE BEING LAZY, AFRAID, OR TOO CROSSED UP TO FIND THEIR OWN WAY.
Could there be a unique way to talk about the po-mo sport culture that gives it meaning and substance without slandering it using the signifier of the tradition?
THAT’S A MOUTHFUL, THERE, MUNGE. CAN YOU RECAST THAT THOUGHT INTO CLEAR LANGUAGE? WHAT “TRADITION” ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT HERE?
JL
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k-man
Gym climber
SCruz
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Nov 22, 2006 - 12:54pm PT
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I'd wait for the new Mountain to show up. Then I had a scrip to Climbing, then R&I. The stories and photos, butt shots and all, fed my imagination and kept me wanting more. "Basecamp" listed the FAs, mostly alpine routes in the mountains. But sometimes you'd hit the jackpot with a whole list of stuff done in your state or home crag (like news of what was happening in Yosemite, Josh, etc...). I remember reading about the FA of 29 Palms and getting goosebumps.
I ate every issue cover to cover (except of course for the classified section, the brussels sprouts of the mag), and especially looked forward to the Letters sections.
Then after 15 or 20 years of excitement, my interest wained. I'm not sure if I just lost interest in what folks had to say, whether it was a tiring of reading the same "new" tip that was just a rehash of something printed 10 years prior, or the fact that really good stories were few and far between.
I don't think it's just the Net eating the lunch of the rags. I believe it's the instant gratification of the main demographic of who the mags target. Otherwise, how come Alpinist is so good and the other main US rags are so, um, thin.
For some reason, I recently renewed my script to Climbing. I go through the mag in about 10 minutes. Sure, good stories do crop up here and there, but I read the Letters section and shake my head (Angry Letter of the Month? I was hoping that was one-time joke). I read the other content, mostly about who is cranking what V-grade boulder problems in record time or some such, and wonder why I'm wasting my time turning the pages. Indeed, the pictures are cool, but they should add to the written content on the pages, not supplant the writer.
As an example, there was recently an article about Hetch Hetchy which I read with some excitement. I was looking for some good beta on the cool new routes being done there. Instead I got several pages of why Hetch Hetchy should be drained. Good info no doubt, but I was left wanting more info about the climbing there, like the pictures promised.
Or how about the new free route done on El Cap? Nice to know it was done. But for the mag to be really useful, an interview with the climbers and a description of the climb would be interesting. Heck, I might buy the mag so I can use the info to actually go out and do some climbing. What an idea.
So gone are the things that really pull my interest, like crazy new routes, controversial ascents, or real route info that I can use. Why is this now missing from the mags, it's not like all these things have dried up. Are people now just keeping their new FA to themselves? Are there no more controversies that are worth discussing? Can we resurrect Ken Nichols? Something, anything.
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Mungeclimber
Trad climber
one pass away from the big ditch
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Nov 22, 2006 - 01:14pm PT
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JL, the clarity of the morning has lifted my cognitive dissonance that generates my small diatribes in the middle of the night.
But if I were to analyze what I was saying I'd think I was trying to get back to the primary point that there is a doubt that pomo climbing adventure lit may not be possible since because the common definition of pomo, a la Lyotard is a distrust of meta-narratives. The climbing lit, as you suggest, does have those beginning, middle and ends somewhat dictated by the adventure itself. That is, I'm trying to say maybe pomo is not what were after... after all.
PoMo is dead, long live the discussion about pomo and mo.
(visualizing an Ouch cartoon here... "pomo and mo went for a boat ride, pomo fell in, who was left?"
LOL!!!
alright, time for java gentlemen. good morning thoughts! thx!!!
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