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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mar 29, 2016 - 05:39am PT
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We were at Dominican Hospital recently and there was a crucifix above the bed. A man dressed as a priest was visiting people. A man dressed as a security guard was handing out visitor passes. People dressed as doctors and nurses were giving excellent care to folks in all stages of bad shape.
After 5 days we left in much better shape than we entered. I din't check out a single credential or read the thesis that the security guard must have written prior to allowing him his trusted post, but I do believe in Dominican Hospital.
The crucifix above the bed gave me an idea to make exorcisms easier. Throw a good seance next door, which is like a party for spirits. Then in all but the most extreme cases all the priest would have to do is slam and bar the door after it(they) leave(s) the afflicted.
I also advised my daughters that when breaking up with a schizophrenic, to say "It's not you, it's them".
Considering all that transpired the week before, we had a good family time on Easter weekend. My Dad turned 75!
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bentelbow
climber
spud state
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Mar 29, 2016 - 07:08am PT
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If Jesus was human wouldn't he have died anyway? Does it make a difference if he was taken out by a bunch of Romans?
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Flip Flop
climber
Earth Planet, Universe
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Mar 29, 2016 - 07:56am PT
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Cmon?
Can God end Hell and the Devil?
Answer the question.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 09:11am PT
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GDavis, it looks like not adding specifics did indeed create more questions! It looks like a lot of the points you cover stem from the fact that using the bible to defend Christianity is basically circular reasoning. I really don't have much of an answer for that. Basically, I believe there is something beyond the physical world for many reasons. Of all of the religions I have looked into I believe Christianity stands out as, by far, the most logical and likely. At that point I take the Bible as truth. As you were probably told many times when you were younger, at some point it's just faith. It's no coincidence that God saw this coming and addressed it quite a bit in the Bible (Matthew 18:3, etc...)
even if they are 2000 years old, are a documentation strikes me of confirmation bias. I believe I can't think of any other way that the acts of Jesus can be proven to people today other than a bunch of people seeing it and writing it down. That's how most things from history are known. My main point was to contrast other religious texts that are from a single person writing down their ideas.
reminds me to be skeptical of such purported truths in lieu of hard evidence. I don't know how to answer this because, again, I can't think of any way that there would be hard evidence that Jesus performed miracles.
Question - did the people who wrote the new testament hear of those prophesies? I believe that the fact that so many people wrote so many parts of the book, without working together on it, is strong evidence that it wasn't one huge conspiracy. Many of the prophesies were actually interpreted differently then how they ended up being fulfilled so I think it it unlikely that Jesus was made up to look like he fulfilled the predictions. It wasn't until after his death that the pieces were put together.
No court in the world would hold first person accounts from 2000 years ago as evidence. I don't know what evidence they would accept from 2000 years ago.
One of my personal struggles with christianity as it was prescribed to me was the wanton love of a God who seems to neither care that I existed or what I did. As easily as my blessings could be blamed on God so could my hardships, and while I don't doubt many find some great ennui from his love I wonder how much is given back that couldn't be attributed to luck, preparation or the actual will of the human in charge. I believe what God said and did in the Bible shows that he cares quite a bit. I also believe that using examples of hardships in life is a weak argument against God because life is so short that any suffering experience during it is pretty insignificant compared with the end goal of being with God. Kind of a big picture way of thinking. (Philippians 3:8)
The idea that the bible is better than any psychology or other text ever written is silly and makes taking other points you make somewhat difficult in regards to claims of specific evidence. I have yet to hear of any hardship in life that is not addressed in the Bible, that's what I meant.
I've met plenty of people who use the bible to better themselves. I've met people who use fitness to better themselves. I've met people who use psychedelics to better themselves.
I believe we were created for a relationship with Jesus and the need to dedicate our lives to something. There are many ways people try to fill this void. For example, meditation has been shown to have many benefits, I believe this is because we were created to spend time praying and people are finding other ways to get similar benefits. Of course it can be argued that we evolved certain traits and people use religion to try to address them.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Mar 29, 2016 - 09:19am PT
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Thanks again for clarifying. I really appreciate your insight and agree that what you have seen in your life has brought you to where you are, a place that also gives you peace and a greater understanding - fu.ck yeah brah!
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 09:27am PT
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Mr Christian, if you please, should muslims enjoy the same legal treatments and social norms as christians? Yes, as long as their practices don't restrict the freedoms of others. I believe Jesus taught that the government and the individual have different roles (can't think of the verses right now, somewhere in Corinthians I think, but I read about this a lot last year). It is not the governments job to enforce religious values. In fact, I don't think individuals can combat sin directly, but we are instead taught to combat sin with love (Matthew 5:44). You won't find me voting against gay marriage or any other moral issue taught in the bible. You will hopefully find myself, and other Christians, showing love to everyone regardless of their actions, as Jesus did.
why did god invent hallucinogenic plants? Ha! I honestly don't know. Maybe he created them that way or maybe they evolved chemical compounds to resist predation. I do not believe the bible clearly states whether mind altering stuff is bad. It does say that altering your mind too often is unwise, which is reasonable (proverbs 20:1). It also says that we should respect the law (Romans 13:1) and to avoid doing things that other people think are wrong so you don't cause them to struggle with their convictions. I have nothing against having a few drinks but I won't drink around people who think it's wrong (1 corinthians 8:9)
If Jesus was human wouldn't he have died anyway? Does it make a difference if he was taken out by a bunch of Romans? I believe the important part is not the death, but the resurrection. If Jesus didn't rise from the dead then Christianity is wrong. (Acts 2:24-32 and many others).
Edit to add: he died an extremely painful death, and in doing so suffered the punishment for our sins, I believe that's why he didn't just die of old age.
Cmon?
Can God end Hell and the Devil?
Answer the question. I suppose so, but I believe that would mean putting an end to free will. I do believe the Bible says he will not end it (Matthew 25:46). But I have friends who disagree, such as 7th day Adventists, and they have some good arguments. The Bible really doesn't spend a ton of time with heaven and hell and neither do I. I don't think that's the point of faith in Jesus, I think that how it can improve your life and all of humanity is the biggest game changer.
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limpingcrab
Trad climber
the middle of CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 29, 2016 - 09:41am PT
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Should christian practice be allowed to restrict the freedom of others?
I do not believe it should.
Edit: unless that practice is hurting people (Psalm 82:3-4, Isaiah 1:17)
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 29, 2016 - 10:02am PT
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I believe that God created humans and angels for loving relationships
With each other? Only in North Carolina? If wed in the church?
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John M
climber
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Mar 29, 2016 - 10:05am PT
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Can God end Hell and the Devil?
Answer the question.
modern Christians tend to believe that Hell is eternal and that Satan will suffer for eternity.
Some Christians believe otherwise. I do not believe that the suffering of hell is eternal. It makes no sense if God is Love, which I believe that God is. Since as Werner stated on the atheist thread, because everything is made out of God, then why would God allow a part of Him/Her Self to suffer for eternity. There a a number of verses in the bible about hell. I do not accept that the bible is the inerrant word of God. I believe that it is for the most part the inspired word of God, but that is an entirely different thing. It was a tool of evil that caused Christians to accept that the bible was the inerrant word of God. For centuries writing/books such as are found in the bible were considered to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, and therefore it was up to each individual to decide which writings held how much truth. This made the path to God difficult, and that is part of the reason the bible came into existence. but to say that it is inerrant was a grave mistake.
Getting back to the understanding of hell. I believe that some of the verses in the bible are false. I believe that hell only exists for a time. The lake of fire which all that is false is put into is eternal. But the suffering is not. And the suffering described in the bible is not physical, but spiritual. God is not some beast who tortures, for why would God want to torture a part of Him/Her self. What happens is those parts of God which have gone astray, such as Satan, in their final moments realize that they are about to exist no more, and so they morn and cry out. And even at the last moment God is generous and kind and gives them a last chance to repent. but it is foreseen that they will not repent because of pride, and so they will be put into the lake of fire which burns away all that is false. My use of the word burn is not meant to describe torture. The actual experience is not of burning but of transforming. There is no physical pain involved. Only the spiritual pain at that last moment when one knows they will be no more. To a being who has seen eternity and heaven, that is painful. Some of you will go happily because you no longer remember heaven. That is a great sadness to God. But God was firm in giving his children dominion over their fate. You can choose eternal life or eternal death. You do so every day on this planet.
Do not confuse religion with God. Religion is man's limited understanding of God. Man's knowledge is limited by his own choices. Much like those who go to school and choose to party everyday instead of studying end up after school with less knowledge then they would have if they had studied. This statement in no way means that God only wants you to study. God created the beauty of the world and wants you to enjoy it. But there is a balance to be learned.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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Mar 29, 2016 - 10:08am PT
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almost missed my cue...
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Mar 29, 2016 - 10:11am PT
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Was the Easter bunny Jesus's pet?
Did it rise from the dead with him? If so did it become a zombie bunny? Was it in fact the Rabbit of Caerbannog in Monty Python and the Holy Grail that was killed when King Arthur threw the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch at it?
Why does the Easter bunny lay eggs? Is it related to the duck bill platypus?
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Lurkingtard
climber
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Mar 29, 2016 - 10:43am PT
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When crucified, Jesus was nailed up through his wrists. Why is he depicted with wounds on his palms?
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bentelbow
climber
spud state
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Mar 29, 2016 - 11:09am PT
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Did God create sin? If so, sounds like the game is rigged.
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bentelbow
climber
spud state
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Mar 29, 2016 - 11:14am PT
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I'll have a problem with the idea that if you don't accept Jesus your going to hell. What about all the people that never even heard of him,Native Americans, very young children etc.?
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WBraun
climber
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Mar 29, 2016 - 11:17am PT
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Why you worry about hell.
Everyone is in it already .....
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Pea-dub
Ice climber
sun diego
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Mar 29, 2016 - 11:48am PT
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CYou hooked me in to the super topo web, Campfire.I've been standing in the trees listening for 10-11 years. Around that time Rajmit or whatever his name was, stirred the pot and got everyone cranky.
A very interesting place with lots of great stories and characters.
I never broke the 5.11 threshold.😊 Haven't climbed for awhile.
A lot of Christians know about Christ and the bible. But they never made the move to have a personal relationship with him.
It's thru a pastor or priest or some denomination.(like minded people saying a one time praying
Accepting him as saviour,
never accepting him as Lord of there life.
True Christianity brings one to the cross ,,you will never look at your brothers in the world the same way.You won't try to make them (behave Or act or behave correctly anything else). I couldn't before the cross I struggle after meeting Christ and the cross. But Christ lives in me.
Many here will tell me I'm wrong. Wow How will you tell another man what he has experienced in his life is not true or a lie or a myth.
Locker I am 100% sure I have you beat by .00001. 😊
I think when you start with Jesus there is a amount of your heart that is transformed..01 % or 30 50 90%
That's where the road of the cross continues in the Christians life or not....
The man of Flesh dies really hard along with the rest of your heart that's in the land of indecision.
At least that's how it is for me.
I was broken as a child 4 months in a military day care.
They told my parents I had epilepsy. Gave me lots of drugs, electric shock
And. Ha my body has more memories then I do.
Those parts of me are coming out slowly that have all the memories.
I have no other path to walk down but this one. I can't turn to the right or left.
I went thru a divorce have 2 grown Daughter's 😊 life has been full of pain .
Thanks for listening.
I have some work this afternoon. I will be busy till 8.
Thanks for start this thread.
You pulled me out of the trees.
Many people would have rather you not started it.
Keep up the good defense
You never know what will
bring about change in some ones life. If God living in you dos not change you. It wasn't God..
Or you couldn't finish what you thought you wanted to do..
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Pea-dub
Ice climber
sun diego
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Mar 29, 2016 - 12:09pm PT
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Never said it was a competition you said that.
Maybe I was wrong in stating that.
Ha Also I'm remembering the prophet Balaam he had a connection with God spoke for him and still chose to die with God's enemies.
Lots of warnings in the bible.
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Mar 29, 2016 - 12:16pm PT
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funny names of routes at buzzard point TN
Jesus! get away from the edge!
900 hundred foot jesus
and so on. great climbs by the way.
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Klimmer
Mountain climber
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Mar 29, 2016 - 03:01pm PT
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Donini said ...
Mar 28, 2016 - 06:13pm PT
People of different religions or those of no religion do not learn from each other....there is an uncrossable divide.
To say that faiths don't cross-over and that no one converts from one faith to another faith is not true at all ...
Many Muslims are coming to faith in Yeshua through supernatural dreams and visions of the Messiah. A great majority of them are after all Arabs, and Children of Abraham. They just went down the wrong path. Yeshua is bringing them back to the true Messiah.
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&ie=UTF-8#q=muslims+having+supernatural+dreams+of+Jesus+or+Yeshua
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Gary
Social climber
Where in the hell is Major Kong?
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Mar 29, 2016 - 03:04pm PT
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OK, serious question.
In Exodus, God wanted Pharoah to let his people go and sent Moses to deliver the message: let my people go, or else Egypt is in for a world of hurt.
God tells Moses how it will go down: God will unleash is fury on Egypt, and Pharoah will decide to let His people go. Then God will "harden" Pharoah's heart to change his mind and not let His people go. God will then unleash another catastrophe on Egypt. Pharoah will decide to let His people go, then God will "harden" Pharoah's heart to change his mind and not let His people go. And so forth.
And that's how it goes down. Pharoah says he'll let the people go, then God changes the Pharoah's mind to not let the people go. More disasters for Egypt follow, and so on.
So, what's the point? If God could bend Pharoah to His will, why not just have Pharoah let his people go? If God just wanted to kill lots of Egyptians why not just be up front about it and forget this charade?
One more thing, if the pestilence has already killed all the animals in Egypt, how can the hail kill more?
Donnini: One monotheistic religion doesn't care what you believe, you'll obtain salvation if you are more good than bad, no matter what you believe, or don't believe: Zoroastrianism.
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