Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Chugach
Trad climber
Vermont
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 05:36pm PT
|
Thanks for posting. My sister married a BPD/Narcissist who destroyed everything in his wake. These people are pure evil.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 28, 2016 - 05:43pm PT
|
Clode, check this out:
http://hoffmaninstitute.ca/articles/therapy-changed-life/
10+ years later and I am happy about the changes in my life and inside myself as a consequence of following this path. One of the key things that is different about their approach than other things I've seen:
There is a focus not just on avoiding the negative patterns of your parents, but of also recognizing how binding it can be to be stuck rebelling against them, doing the opposite. It's possible your mom had some good traits mixed among the sh!t, and it's easy to get stuck rejecting everything because it's from her. So the deal about getting over parents is to be able to choose your actions and beliefs and defuse triggers without the automated responses related to our experience of our parents. Then you can relate to them in a less emotionally charged way.
I can see I need to go through a round of these exercises to get rid of some of the latent energy about issues with my ex. That will get at whatever issues of my own that flirt with narcissism. But I'm afraid that if I let go of that energy, I will let my guard down and get taken advantage of... That's something else I can deal with. Man, this communercayshun stuff works.
|
|
SC seagoat
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, Moab, A sailboat, or some time zone
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 05:55pm PT
|
Ummmm. I thought we were supposed to have some compassion for people with mental illness. These are DSM classifications. Calling them "evil" is rather harsh. You don't have to keep them a part of your life...but demonizing them?
Susan
Edit. Guilty guilty guilty
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 08:31pm PT
|
I have compassion for Cosmic...
|
|
nah000
climber
no/w/here
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:09pm PT
|
ya know, this is a bit of a weird thread to me...
i respect a lot of what you write on here NutAgain! and so i hope you don't take the following in anything but the respectful vein that it is intended...
but i have to say, i think this thread should have been titled and come more from the direction of masochists, messianic complexes, and perpetual victimization... [or some such]
because it seems to me this thread is to a large degree, at least in part of the way it has been framed, a continuation of the same cycles that it is attempting to move beyond...
and i say this, having some long term, deep and painful relationships with people that had/have at least some narcissistic tendencies...
at the end of the day, the pain and difficulties weren't really about them, though. because those relationships were because of who i was, as well...
i attracted those people, i needed them to show me aspects of myself, and in the end they also supported me through a lot of shIt that i probably wouldn't have emotionally and physically survived without them.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:19pm PT
|
Cosmic...quit hogging the mirror..
|
|
thebravecowboy
climber
The Good Places
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
|
I think that you just admitted it, Mr. Brennan. I will second that.
|
|
Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:20pm PT
|
Meeting the diagnosis of Narcissistic Personality Disorder is very different from having narcissistic tendencies. Someone who has some narcissitic tendencies also has other tendencies that can make the quality of relationship quite satisfying in ways. There can also be an ownership of the narcissism. This is not possible with NPD. People with NPD rarely enter treatment, but my office is filled with people they have hurt.
|
|
nah000
climber
no/w/here
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 09:21pm PT
|
jim b: hahahaha. got a good hard laugh out of that one...
edit to add, Daphne: so are you saying that if someone has NPD the people they affect are purely victimized and there are no qualities that make the relationship quite satisfying in ways? because of your wording i'm assuming that your post is in part a reference to what i wrote... if so, there's a reason i said "at least" narcissistic tendencies... while i have my suspicions, especially in one case, i ain't a doctor and to my knowledge those people have never sought out a diagnosis, so it's not my place to say anything more than what i did...
|
|
Daphne
Trad climber
Northern California
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 10:41pm PT
|
nah000, I will go so far as to say that it is impossible to have a relationship that is anything other than superficial with someone with NPD. They are just awful to be around, unless you are their sycophant, or are similarly wounded, or you do not require authenticity or emotional vulnerability. You have to be willing to one-down yourself. Their intimacies are manipulations. The core of their psyche is extremely wounded and they rarely let anyone see how small they feel inside.
It is far easier to be in relationship with a Borderline (not that I recommend it), as they actually crave relationship and will enter therapy to find a way out of their hell. An NPD enters therapy when their family/partner drags them, but since they won't acknowledge that they have any problems ("What problem, my problem is that I'm just too good for them") the family disintegrates.
I recommend the book Trapped in the Mirror, a book for people with narcissistic parents.
I should add that it isn't easy to see narcissism coming at you if you prize confidence. Narcissists are brimming with what looks like confidence and it is only after you know them that you realize it is all a strategy.
|
|
nah000
climber
no/w/here
|
|
|
Jan 28, 2016 - 11:10pm PT
|
hey Daphne, thanks for that.
i may be off base here, but i'll continue potentially digging a hole anyway...
if this thread was about narcissistic [whether npd or borderline] parents and by birth family members, i wouldn't have made the comment i did.
because it was initiated regarding a spouse, the framing, as i interpreted it, as being one of primarily victimization, remains strange to me.
that said, i accept it's possible the implication i'm reading into what you've written is correct and i may very well be mistaken in my reaction because i have just never experienced true clinical npd.
if that's the case, i hope i never do, as what i have experienced was difficult enough and so i'd prefer to remain politely mistaken...
all the best, all.
|
|
rottingjohnny
Sport climber
Shetville , North of Los Angeles
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:37am PT
|
Daphne...You mention confidence being used by the narciscist as a strategy..What is that strategy..? Control of the the victim...? Do narcissist make good used- car sales people..?
|
|
Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 07:43am PT
|
RJ, only if they check their integrity at the door. That said, Cal Worthington was just a good
old-fashioned American who liked airplanes and cowboy hats.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2016 - 09:19am PT
|
Their intimacies are manipulations. The core of their psyche is extremely wounded and they rarely let anyone see how small they feel inside.
Where I left off in my understanding of my ex, was that after so many years together I still didn't know what she was thinking, what was real and what was not, how she might react to a situation, and to what lengths she might be willing to go to get what she wants. One of the talents she had is to mix authentic emotions with fake ones, like a good liar can blend elements of truth with fiction to be more convincing.
My ex during some moments of vulnerability (very little in the ending years) would acknowledge how F'd up she was, that I should run away. The sad part is these moments of sincere authenticity would appear to me as a glimmer of hope to salvage things, that there is a person who wants to change, and in some alternate version of this world we could make it work. It just served to keep me hooked in for more stuff that I should not have accepted.
Nah000, I completely agree with your perspective. I'm not sure how to focus on naming and describing the socio/narci stuff without it coming off as a victimization thread. These relationships I think are like a lock and a key that fit each other. I couldn't get out of it until I changed myself. I can't see clearly why I am suddenly focusing on it more, maybe a sort of release after being silent about it for so long, taking a deep breath in the light of day (and partial Internet anonymity. Honestly it's a period of relative calm and stability with my ex, but I am always waiting for the other shoe to drop. And it's hard to sort out when it's a shoe dropping on that front via kid manipulation, or just normal kid growing up stuff.
But sometimes (many times?) the resurfacing of old water under the bridge does bug me enough to get in the way of getting my work done. Back to the dilemma of really letting it go vs holding on enough so I remember to keep my defenses up.
Other replies
 I agree it is too narrow-minded to call these folks "evil". It is a dysfunction as an adult that served them well in the circumstances of their childhood, and may play a prominent part in their successes in other aspects of life
we all have our own issues, but not all of us have issues that go so far to damage others. It's still worthwhile to look at ourselves and be aware of how our own actions are hurtful to others even if we can't readily see it
it's probably worth it's own thread, or mixing up in here, the dysfunctions that serve as the easily openable lock to match the keys of narcissism and sociopathy.
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 09:50am PT
|
I haven't found the NPD in my life to be operating from a locus of 'evil'. Their orientation to the world, and strategies they use to interact with others (esp. in their closest relationships) are simply the way they operate in life. It's not especially conscious- it's just their personality wiring.
That's the realization one has to come to grips with- that these personality disorders are not something that is 'fixable' in therapy, as this is hard wiring in behavior that isn't going to change. As their partner, you can either choose to leave it, or cope with their behaviors. But do not ever expect that they will change.
"People with NPD rarely enter treatment, but my office is filled with people they have hurt."
We participated in couples therapy for a time, but it was entirely ineffective. One of the core traits of NPD's is mastery in manipulation of the therapy process, away from themselves and redirecting everything onto their partners. The therapist gets sucked into their manipulations, further reinforcing the 'gaslighting' the NPD is doing on their partner. It's truly crazy-making.
|
|
NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 29, 2016 - 10:44am PT
|
^^^ Apogee, completely consistent with my experience of couples therapy.
here are a few more observations from my situation that I haven't seen discussed as much:
There is a very clear inner and outer circle. When I was on the inside, my ex would treat me with a degree of care that I have seldom seen elsewhere. Maybe this was just the cultivation phase for later exploitation, but I think it was deeper than that. I think it was the "honeymoon" phase where my ex still had the ideal hopes of a beautiful life that could be, and as soon as we had some hiccups then it was a snap back to the reality of "I'm not safe" and the full narcissist/socio-detachment stuff would kick in. My version of that defense response was thinking (and more or less saying) "this is it, it's over" and that reaction from me further inflamed her issues.
An aspect of than inner circle is an inability to separate others from self. When I was in the inner circle, it was this all-encompassing full emotional immersion committed to the end and to the exclusion of everything and everyone else, or if there was anything that threatened that or broke that illusion then it flipped back to me being on the outer circle, go F-off and die. It was full intensity good or full intensity bad.
-I was (most or half of the time) on the inner circle during the early part of my marriage, which is what made things manageable. That involved me reshaping myself into the person I needed to be to make the relationship work, which I willingly did. One thing I did notice along the way, is that our intimacy never felt like peers- her ability to be loving toward me worked best my ex treating me as if I was her kid (except in the moments of sex).
As soon as kids came along, she had a real target for that maternal style loving. The kids were on the inner circle, inseparable from her, and her mother was elevated to the inner circle in a very volatile and inconsistent way (she was living with us for extended periods of time), and I was cast out of the circle.
There was a third intermediate circle between inside and outside. There was ALWAYS at least one other guy vying for a favored position with her. She seemed to always have (and still does) one guy that would selflessly do errands for her, go to ATM machine to pick up cash, go shopping, pick up this or that, trim the yard bushes, etc... always had a person who did that for her who hoped to have some relationship with her while she treated them like absolute crap with occasional moments of niceness. As soon as the marriage with me ended (and I can see in hindsight based on stories she shared that she had this for years before I met her), she always had one guy in that prominent position and one or more waiting in the wings that she used as leverage to get what she wanted from the primary.
This triangle idea isn't restricted to guys... it was the same with her friends who are girls (which frankly were not many), and also could include her mom.
OK gotta go for now.
|
|
rbord
Boulder climber
atlanta
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:31am PT
|
Hey - glad that you're feeling good about yourself again, and that you're now a healthy person who's able to have a healthy relationship with the right degree of stubbornness, etc. It's always validating to believe that in the wide range of neurodiversity, we have the right kind of brain functioning and that its objectively clear (hurray YouTube!) that someone else is to blame for reality's problems.
For me, yea I have family with mental illness (autism, bipolar, borderline. ADHD) and it's challenging to understand how to support them and try to get a better big picture for all of us without resorting to blaming myself or blaming them. When push comes to shove, and we fail to be able to make any more progress "fixing" what's wrong, we need to resort to approving of ourselves and blaming others using whatever reasons we can find - "normal" gender, skin color, mental functioning, etc. But it's tricky being able to do so while maintaining a sense of our own moral goodness. But that's the way humans are built to believe, and it sounds like you're getting better at doing so in the "normal" human way, so well done! If we can't believe that being a "normal" human is a good thing, then we're all in trouble.
|
|
darkmagus
Mountain climber
San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 11:46am PT
|
Cool thread! I recently learned a bit about narcissism through Sam Vaknin's YouTube videos. Then I read "The Narcissist Next Door" by Jeffrey Kluger, which I recommend.
I was always puzzled by the odd behavior of my uncle and one of my good friends growing up. Now I am not puzzled, because I understand that they are narcissists. Probably not full-blown NPD, but definitely narcissists.
At my wedding reception, my uncle told a group of us that the next time we're all together like this, it will be at his funeral. WTF?
My other narcissist, a friend from childhood, didn't attend my wedding even though he was invited. He didn't actually decline the invitation though. Because why would anyone want to be somewhere that they're guaranteed to NOT be the center of attention?
Narcissists are a very calculating bunch, but very simple to understand. They are machines programmed to do ONE thing: extract narcissistic supply from anyone/anything they can.
|
|
canyoncat
Social climber
SoCal
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:05pm PT
|
Laughing at all the head pats. I hate to burst the Kumbaya bubble going on here, but someone is not nearly as evolved as they think.
I saw an awful lot of "they can make you do this, they can make you do that". That's called denial bud. No one can make you do diddily. You did that all by yourself. YOU. No one but you. Own that, psych that, then come back and tell us all about how you allowed you to be screwed, over and over. Oh, and try to do without equivocation and excuses about how that "other" made you.
Bad things can happen to good people. Once. After that it's on them.
|
|
apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
|
|
|
Jan 29, 2016 - 01:42pm PT
|
I'd agree with canyoncat (and others) that if one gets into multiple relationships with NPD's (or similar), then shame on them. It's the first one, though, that is the insidious one, and is oftentimes not immediately recognizable, yet very seductive. Many find themselves pretty far down the road (kids, financial commitments, etc) before this becomes clear- and it's a helluva lot harder to back out of it then.
Personally, my situation was relatively mild- I'd characterize that partner as a 2.5 / 5 on the NPD scale (no such thing, btw), but enough that it was quite damaging to the potential of our relationship. Though we were down the road a ways, it wasn't so far that getting the hell out wasn't an option. Painful as it was, that's exactly what I did.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!