Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 11:43am PT
|
.
The previous post has been reconsidered . . .
Joking that a Jazz trio has been photographed on Mars was irreverent
I apologize
This topic . . . Well Mr Cochrane schools me, puts me in my place
Which I readily agree with . . . To-wit,..... I'm a twit.... Sorry again.
although the quote is :
" One small step for man, one giant leap for mankind"
Many of us thought, in the 60s, that everyone would be given astronaut training.
As children we were given unrealistic dreams of space flight and other things like the colonization of Mars.
I'm both fascinated and completely out of my depth of understanding.
While Lurking here, it struck me how much the eduction systems,basic to advanced, changed
To only provide a rudimentary,at best, understanding of the issues dealing with space exploration and the cosmos.
and with the great advancement in all fields of science a veil was pulled down; hard to penetrate only made available to a few , while the entire population was told to trust the ones who pulled the strings
|
|
Klimmer
Mountain climber
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 11:50am PT
|
Tom,
Cool insider's info behind the scenes. Thanks
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 12:39pm PT
|
I was also participated in a series of meetings at Pratt and Whitney Rocketdyne because some senior NASA management (i.e. politicians) dictated reuse the RS-25 Shuttle main engines for Constellation.
Some of the meetings pulled in some of the original designers and engineers from decades earlier, including one literally on his deathbed and wheeled in attached to a full set of hospital monitors etc….there's no way he wanted to miss that meeting!
The upshot was there's no way to make it work to build more of these. Picture individually hand-crafted turbo pumps by the one guy who had figured out how to machine one that wouldn't blow up.
Contrasted with current engine designs coming out of the pipeline of CAD/CAE/CAM design/engineering/manufacturing systems. You could call it by the same name, but requiring complete reverse engineering followed by complete re-engineering.
And many of the highly specialized companies manufacturing key components are long gone or have moved on to entirely different technologies.
Now the remaining shuttle engines are scheduled for use on Space Launch System first stage launches. Needless to say, those in the know are heart broken at the idea of using these priceless engines for expendable missions in order to 'save money'.
Political appearances are obviously senior to practical engineering.
It is a bit like if Royal and Warren were pulled in to devise a mission plan for the Tommy and Alex foray into Patagonia…(to save money…)
NASA has issued a lengthy explanation behind the decision to contract Aerojet Rocketdyne to restart production of the RS-25 engine, mainly centering on the claim it is less expensive – and safer – than developing a new engine.
http://www.nasaspaceflight.com/2016/01/nasa-defends-restart-rs-25-production/
Meanwhile SpaceX is learning to land and reuse their boosters…
What a hoot!
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 12:44pm PT
|
Tom-
Historically, there's always built in "scope creep," when things are designed by a committee. i.e. A camel is a horse designed by a committee. The Army always overloads the grunts on the ground with heavier than necessary and usually superfluous gear. Why would a space capsule be any different? I've always wondered why the "bicycle wheel" space station was never adopted? It was first proposed by Von Braun in 1953! Is it the "not invented here" mindset? That would alleviate half the problems related to long sessions of microgravity; the radiation shielding is the other remaining issue.
Too bad a flyable reentry vehicle wasn't chosen for the ongoing program; i.e. Dyna Soar.
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 12:49pm PT
|
An additional comment relating to Tom's comment about the Senior NASA officials; this is too important and technical for politicians to comprehend. Let the engineers engineer and make the correct scientific decisions.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 01:13pm PT
|
Because of Delta V limitations, we are highly dependent upon aerobraking for ballistic space craft.
When you are flying at 17,500 mph from orbit, or 24,500 mph from lunar transition into earth's atmosphere…it makes sense not to have much of anything sticking out into the plasma stream. The huge shuttle had huge problems with protecting its huge wings. Many people realize Shuttle was much too dangerous and we all lost friends on it.
However the Silbervogel/Brass Bell/Dyna-Soar/X-15/X-20/X-21/BOR-4/Mig-105/X-37 OTV/X-38 CRV/Hermes/SNC Dream Chaser/etc represent a long and interesting history of a general design providing aerodynamic benefits in a thick atmosphere planet such as earth.
Note that it is possible for a capsule (Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, Vostok, Voskhod, Soyuz, Orion, Dragon) to manage substantial aerobraking trajectory control by slip-streaming on one edge of the heat shield, just like a surf board or snow board.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 01:19pm PT
|
the bankers rule the money to rule the politicians to rule the scientists and engineers
it's all a boondoggle to obfuscate the fact that very little happens in NASA that isn't primarily a cover-up for the real space programs
think of a job at NASA as a job interview for the real space programs that nobody is supposed to know about
i don't qualify because i maintain the outrageous opinion that people deserve to know what's going on
recognizing there are dimensions in which that is not a good idea…some things do have to be protected…
however most things labeled secret are actually coverups for waste and criminality
however that conveniently adds layers of obfuscation to the big secrets
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 01:23pm PT
|
Ah! As in everything else...it's all about the money!
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
|
I've always wondered why the "bicycle wheel" space station was never adopted? It was first proposed by Von Braun in 1953! I'm not trolling you brainiacs
Why no moon base?
Why tin cans connected to each other for 20+ years?
Then using the - space station - for tourist visits ?
If we could have ....... By now we would have....
In 60s I had a lunch box with that 'bicycle wheel space station' on it
it gave me big dreams....
The company American Cyanamid? (Edit) >Dewey & Elmer,, was a small chem. Company that became involved, with solid fuel issues, then joined or folded into the American Cyanamid co, that was then?( forced ?)to join the huge and some what opaque, WR Grace,inc
This was when the raw product Vermiculite( asbestos ) was strip mined in Libby Montana.
The mine left huge piles, of waste that would eventual become a pollution nightmare & Federal Super fund site. As an example of the space exploration at all costs laying waste to the planet in the process.
The constant waste of the best minds we have on all things extraterrestrial seems almost
Mindless. What is to gain if the planet we live on becomes uninhabitable ?
I know, just ignore failures, hype the improvements to modern life that the space ( et al ) program has given mankind
and blindly forge ahead to get . . . how many actual people off this planet ?
and what ? All put into frozen animation that still only works on the rarest of occasion?
Space travel is the last gasp and boondoggle of that failed world power, the one that we imported all the early technology from...
You know the regime I speak of.
It is where we got the V2 rocket technology from
and if it's a Von Braun idea, the 'bicycle wheel space station' from.
Was it a drawing board idea ? at least,did it become the current Space Station ?
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 01:32pm PT
|
the idea is that money is a means for convenient fair exchange
if that were its primary function we would have no need for bankers
the actuality is that money's more important function is to manipulate people and opinions
so then the really big question
who or what controls the bankers?
this thread is probably not the right venue for that discussion…
but that question is basic to this discussion
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 01:36pm PT
|
Ah, yes; that would turn this sane and rational discussion into a polititard thread, laced and dripping with venom.
Gnome- I don't consider space exploration as a "waste of the best scientific minds," but really the ultimate creative outlet for all mankind. The "One step for a man, and one step for all mankind," stated by Neil Armstrong.
|
|
Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 01:41pm PT
|
My limited ability to post in haste has me at as great a disadvantage as my lack of real knowledge of the sciences involved but while I was responding, the explanation
it's all a boondoggle to obfuscate the fact that very little happens in NASA that isn't primarily a cover-up for the real space programs
And yes I was trying not be insulting to the work, but felt very much that it all just does not add up.
Thank you for taking a moment, I know my place and will retreat, but I read( slowly )
Then try to digest what I understand, I also think that the planets woes are being ignored for some foggy in the shadows issue.
I think it amazing the levels of mind power that are available to follow here on a rock climbers forum.
EDIT ~ I'm not sure what to say or how to say it. . .,
I said I was way out my league here, but felt compelled to post, I would like to have a more clear understanding of what is the reason for space exploration at all cost - with so little real ability to go and stay beyond the moons orbit?,
V V V V
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 01:49pm PT
|
suffice to say people are convinced they know the basics
and yet hardly even have a clue
and those few clues that land in front of their noses
are adamantly rejected
welcome to the terrarium
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 02:31pm PT
|
so regarding the movie's potato terrarium on Mars
please note:
complex ecological systems (complex biodiversity maps, long complex food chains), are inherently stable
simple ecological systems are inherently unstable and subject to collapse
(as was done to Mars)
also:
failing to respect and care for a planet
does not encourage the planet to support your continued existence
(we too can look like Mars…)
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 02:39pm PT
|
If it wasn't for people like TomCochrane this planet would be long dead .....
|
|
Brokedownclimber
Trad climber
Douglas, WY
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Jan 21, 2016 - 02:53pm PT
|
Since we have Tom in the mixture now, I'm going to make a critical comment about the MOVIE again: the sheer size and scale of the Hermes spacecraft, the size of the habs, and everything was "super-sized." The problem that everything transported there had to be lifted to Earth orbit by heavy-lift vehicles. That seemed...irrational. From Tom's earlier comment that the Constellation capsule was too heavy, everything else was WAAAY too heavy!
|
|
MikeL
Social climber
Seattle, WA
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 03:16pm PT
|
NutAgain!: . . . it is a movie after all.
This says a great deal.
Expecting any film to portray “how things really are” is a fantasy. Even in documentaries. A film is a drama. A drama needs to resonate with an audience’s beliefs, norms, and values.
Viola.
|
|
TomCochrane
Trad climber
Santa Cruz Mountains and Monterey Bay
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 03:45pm PT
|
Thanks WB…i try...
Well, the ISS is about that big. But it is also the most ambitious construction project attempted by our modern society, with 17 international partners and all their commercial and educational partners…the largest flying object ever constructed…and constructed while it is flying. I managed a multi-million dollar project to develop SimStation for model-based systems engineering and as a reference for flight controllers. I also provided technical support for development of an educational computer game called SpaceStationSim. If you ever get a chance to visit the huge Fry's electronics store near NASA Johnson in Houston, they have a full scale model of ISS hanging from the ceiling…bigger than a football field.
I met with one of the ISS commanders shortly after he returned from six months onboard, and his comment was that the main thing we have learned so far on ISS is that we don't know how to make a life support system work. My reply was that is also the main thing we have learned living on planet earth!
My attitude has been that if we want to properly support life on Planet Earth (obviously should be Planet Ocean), then we need to learn how to run life in a remote laboratory to properly assess the challenge and develop the required knowledge, skills, and abilities. We are acting like spoiled children living off an inheritance…or perhaps more like maggots on a corpse..
Sending everything from the surface up to orbit doesn't make sense. Planetary Resources Inc is a well funded startup effort to do asteroid mining. Their first target is to mine an ice NEO for fuel and life support systems.
i use to jokingly suggest wishing we would hurry up and discover a solid gold asteroid so people would be adequately challenged to get up there. Then I found out we have done way better than that. There is one NEO in particular that is easier to get to than the moon and contains more stainless steel, platinum, and other metals than have been mined so far from this planet. My collegue Brad Blair is an asteroid geologist from the Colorado School of Mines. I suggested to him we boost that NEO into LEO and start dropping pieces into an open pit mine in Nevada. His reply was, why would you do that…what's it worth up there!
And a company named United Space Structures Inc has the right idea. They have invited me to be a partner. I should probably accept if I wasn't plagued by knowing too much. I did host the founder at my home for several days and introduced him to some key members of the NASA community.
Their idea is to mine in situ NEO materials and use 3D printers to construct large space frame structures. If the visible space program was more than a boondoggle this would be a fine project to support once it got sufficient traction.
http://www.ussgaia.com/#team
|
|
climbski2
Mountain climber
Anchorage AK, Reno NV
|
|
|
Jan 21, 2016 - 08:37pm PT
|
Hey Andrzej. I will make it happen sometime this year ASAP.
In the meantime... this conversation from someone who long ago took it far beyond where this thread currently resides.
[Click to View YouTube Video]
I have no Tatoos
But if I did
Per Aspera Ad Astra
[Click to View YouTube Video]
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!