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GOclimb
Trad climber
Boston, MA
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Oct 16, 2006 - 04:21pm PT
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I don't follow all the drama and trolls here, but on the topic at hand: I think it's better to be entirely public, but that's simply not going to happen. And as long as some things are public, and other things aren't, well, the person who goes public is going to get a lot of unwanted attention.
As for putting the beat-down on guys who harass women, I'm sympathetic to the idea, but I know that it's trickier than it seems.
Not saying that this is the case with your friend, crimpergirl, but it's often hard to know the truth of a situation when everyone is being hush-hush.
For example, I knew a girl in college who actually made stuff up about every guy she dated. She may, in fact, have made up some of the stalkers altogether - I'm not sure they all existed. I'm sure this is very rare - most women who admit to being threatened or hurt are telling the truth. In fact, like Crimper said, such things are underreported. But the opposite does occasionally happen, so don't draw and quarter that guy until you're really sure of your facts.
GO
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Oct 16, 2006 - 04:23pm PT
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Nice work! rotflmbo.
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KP Ariza
climber
SCC
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Oct 16, 2006 - 05:36pm PT
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I always check Knott's threads cause he is a good dude(and friend)but once again another boring !@#%^* subject(in my opinion). Who gives a !@#%^* about this sh#t really? Davey boy, remember rock climbing? What's it been? A year? Another climbing talent wasted at the hands of the keyboard. I may be in the minority on this one but there has gotta be another forum for this crap huh?
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scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
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Oct 16, 2006 - 06:02pm PT
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So, what's the troll? Is it just that anachronism=Nature?
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Oct 16, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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2nd identities are sometimes useful when there are kooks whose dirt ought to be discussed in public, for the collective good. i certainly don't see how mountainman's unmasking was any sort of "smear", that's just making conversation about what is right there in the public record.
(was it irrelevant that jeff gannon was a male prostitute? i think knott).
now it seems the guy was quietly creepy, in private?
well then, i guess it's a good thing this all came up, so folks can be aware and be on guard, if necessary.
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sandstone and sky
Trad climber
AK
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Oct 16, 2006 - 07:06pm PT
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Fascinating.
Where does Ouch! come in?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2006 - 07:13pm PT
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Crimpergirl wrote:
The receiver wouldn't tell me who sent them.
Regarding someone making rape-threatening posts to another user:
I am utterly astounded that the creep wasn't immediately outed,
banned from the forum, and referred to the police. Anything short
of that is bullshít. And enough already with the "anonymous female" crap.
While whether or knott past trangressions (for which justice was served)
deserve to be brought up remains open to debate, the main justification
for the MM soap opera was the omnipresent anonymous female™
who was *allegedly* harrassed.
Is it OK to humiliate people publicly based on unsubstantiated hearsay?
That is the question.
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Forest
Trad climber
Tucson, AZ
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Oct 16, 2006 - 07:35pm PT
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Regarding someone making rape-threatening posts to another user:
I am utterly astounded that the creep wasn't immediately outed,
banned from the forum, and referred to the police. Anything short
of that is bullshít. And enough already with the "anonymous female" crap.
While whether or knott past trangressions (for which justice was served)
deserve to be brought up remains open to debate, the main justification
for the MM soap opera was the omnipresent anonymous female™
who was *allegedly* harrassed.
Is it OK to humiliate people publicly based on unsubstantiated hearsay?
That is the question.
hear hear (to all of that.)
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FREEclimber
Social climber
SF
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Oct 16, 2006 - 07:40pm PT
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once "justice is served", the record is not sealed, and anyone who engages in self-humiliating behavior has simply got to live w/ that. openly discussing someone's past ethical transgressions (particularly those that are not in question and are part of the public record) is NOT the same as smearing someone, period.
IMO the main motivation for outing this guy was the abundant hypocracy in the air of his posts, wrt his own actions. frankly, i think it's hilarious. if the guy wants to keep his dirty laundry private, maybe he won't post all over the web like an anonymous prick.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 16, 2006 - 07:42pm PT
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It cannot be denied,
That a gal with a really nice whine,
Can find herself a brainless brute,
And not often wearing a suit.
But the questions still remains,
Who really has this claim?
Should we defend god knows who,
All because our balls are blue?
workin on the poetry skills. sorry you are the guinea pigs...
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 16, 2006 - 07:44pm PT
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if the guy wants to keep his dirty laundry private, maybe he won't post all over the web like an anonymous prick.
Hmmm. Good point.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Salt Lake
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Oct 16, 2006 - 11:56pm PT
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Again I'm the jenny-come-lately to a thread that's coming to resolution (somewhat).
There is more than one "anonymous female" but the events and circumstances to each were different, (or at least that's my take). I'm aware of the anonymous female who received rape threats,( that Crimpergirl is speaking of). That was several months ago and no identity, of the offender, was given in the email, address. He apparently used a register and run email address to send the message. It had, in fact, been mentioned to others on ST and one individual offered to trace the email but nothing came of it or the offender was not found by tracing IP address. (I'm not technically versed in the tracing process.)
Crimpergirl did well in clearing the fog as to women's reluctance to come forward on rape and harassment issues. And I agree that a great majority of the males are well intentioned and decent (and a few are outright sympathetic). But some male posts here and on the percocet thread might evidence why women are reluctant to go public.
Suppose she posted the threat situation on a thread, here. First, there's going to be a big debate and choosing up of sides of whether she's telling the truth, along with descriptions of various punishments and tortures such an offender is worthy of. If an investigation ensues and a perpetrator is indeed found, then there will be a big debate over whether she enticed, prodded or even harassed the accused, herself. Most women are fearful of negative attention and often decide that the process of getting justice is not worth the derision and doubt they catch from going public. Women understand this very well, but it seems to float over most men's heads like campfire smoke.
The complaints concerning MM may be an entirely different issue. I was not aware, until yesterday, that several woman had been persued by him in an improper manner. (I had very little forum contact with MM and he never crowded myself in any way) But I was enlightened, by some who know, to the fact that there are complaints against him from several girls, here on ST.
There is no secret society of ST females carrying on voluminous clandestine discussions, as Crimpie explained. But females, here, do, in fact communicate with each other occasionally about specific individuals who are troublesome. That shouldn't make well adjusted male members feel slighted (or threatened). And it shouldn't make well intentioned males cautious about sending women emails with decent, legitimate content.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 17, 2006 - 01:34pm PT
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not to offend the women folk.
but any time someone else accuses somebody of something, it is natural for everyone to find out what the facts were. i was luring around this site for quite a while before it became apparent that some men and some woman use this place to meet potential partners. partners for whatever activity one may need a partner for. i suppose i was naive and stupid about it. personally, i aint looking but i do find it interesting.
so, knowing that, of course there will be messages sent to others on occaision. if the girls are keeping it to themselve thats cool. except for say, a newby girl who is not on the distribution list. then lets say there is some whacko who gets to her. wouldnt you ladies feel like you slighted a sister?
it sounds like some may be harmless flirting. and it sounds like you couldnt tie the rape email down to some dude. you guys will have to figure out what to do. i think outing unsolicited e-mails if they dont stop is perfectly fine here.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 17, 2006 - 02:46pm PT
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creepy stuff, I'm definitely one who had "no idea."
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Topic Author's Reply - Oct 17, 2006 - 06:28pm PT
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Well, your definition of a troll is a bit different than mine.
It kinda helps when someone actually takes it seriously...
For a consolation prize, I offer my own limerick:
There once was a hardman named Knott
who used the best trick he was taught
he casted his bait
but before he could wait
an anachronistic whopper was caught!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Oct 17, 2006 - 06:58pm PT
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okay, THAT, aspect was pretty darn funny!
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Ouch!
climber
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Oct 17, 2006 - 07:26pm PT
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"There once was a hardman named Knott
who used the best trick he was taught
he casted his bait
but before he could wait
an anachronistic whopper was caught!"
That ain't bad, HK. Not bad at all.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Oct 17, 2006 - 08:41pm PT
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yes hk, thanks. better than my lame attempts at poetry yesterday...
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Ouch!
climber
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Oct 17, 2006 - 08:49pm PT
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Hawk, maybe there's just something about a girl dating a farting bird dog that somehow makes the moment a tad less romantic.:-))
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