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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 15, 2015 - 06:25am PT
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Good points about high altitude work. When I was a young buck, I had some serious dreams about becoming a hardcore mountaineer. In fact, it was a documentary about climbing Mt. Everest narrated by Orson Wells that helped fire my imagination to become a climber. But as I was making more and more ascents, putting in the work to get to the upper levels of the game, I realized how easy it was to die. I got smacked by rock fall in the Canadian Rockies. People I met later died on moderate terrain. It just didn't seem worth it anymore--to me. I love climbing and can't wait to get back on the rock, but I want a little more room for error, a little more control. These are deeply personal calculations, but, ideally, our loved ones are part of the equation.
BAd
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 15, 2015 - 06:34am PT
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The main thing that concerns me about BASE (or high altitude mountaineering for that matter) is the objective danger, the things out of my control (e.g. line overs, bad weather). If things are in my control (even in something as dangerous as free soloing, unless a hold breaks) I feel like I at least have a pretty good idea of what the actual risks will be.
Bah, it's all relative. And your perception of risks is warped by your skills and familiarity in that arena. Works the same with the BASE guys.
In the mountains, (and well below "high-altitude") I've had numerous softball sized minerals whiz by my head at terminal velocity. I've had a vehicle-sized boulder roll between myself and my roped partner below the Willis Wall shredding the rope. I've jumped plenty of soft crevasse lips that were missing a few days later on the return trip.
In your rock-climbing analogy... Do you place protection every body length on easy terrain? Holds can and do break on easy terrain too.
Obviously dudes flying close to things are much closer to that bleeding edge but we're all pretty far out there in terms of risk. Only our perception is different.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 15, 2015 - 09:57am PT
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Our perception of risk plays into it but there's objective analysis and statistics as well and I try to make decisions with that in mind.
With the limited statistics available BASE appears approx 100 times more dangerous than rock climbing. And an objective look at the speed of BASE. Vs roped climbing falls indicates much less margin for error with BASE.
Is the experience of BASE worth the risk of 100 rock climbs? For lots of people obviously yes.
And of course there's things you can do to reduce risk. I try not to climb under others on climbs with loose rocks, because that's by far the most likely way you'll get hit by rockfall. I'm usually on the lookout for loose holds, it helps to have done some FAs to get in that mindset.
I'm glad there's people out there doing cutting edge stuff in all sports. It's fun to watch and it advances what is possible for everyone. There's also different personalities. Some people were born to chase the Mammoth and wear it out. Some were born to go in for the kill. And some were born to wait at camp and butcher it.
Do you place protection every body length on easy terrain? Holds can and do break on easy terrain too.
One of the best things I heard when learning to lead is when I asked my mentor "How do I know how often to place pro?" And his answer wasn't every X feet is was "Think about what would happen when you fall at any point and where you will end up when the rope snaps tight and has rope stretch, and keep in mind the potential of a piece failing." And boom all of a sudden I got it. Leading off the ground or ledge you need more pro. On a steep wall with a clean fall you can run it out more. If you are trusting your life to one placement, e.g. due to groundfall, back it up if possible.
In the back of my mind, especially before a hard move, I have an idea of what I need to do in the split second at the start of a fall, e.g. how much to push out from the wall or how to brace for a swinging fall. I've also seen climbers fall that have low body awareness and just fall like a sack of potatoes and get hurt when they shouldn't have.
On easy terrain I may run it out 50 feet or more, but I know the likelihood of a fall is low; if a hold breaks on easy terrain for me that means it's low angle and there's a good chance I can hang on, I'd honestly be more concerned about my belayer below me. When I get to about 40-50 feet out I usually still plug in some pro even though I greatly doubt I'd need it. The risk is low but the consequence of a 100 foot plus fall is high.
When my friends in the 90s asked if I wanted to start BASE jumping I said "I'd like to try it from a bridge at the bottom of the structure (nothing to hit or get caught in), over water (a semi hard landing may be walked away from instead of breaking bones), with a round chute (more reliable than ram airs, at least at that time), and by myself (no one to hit or think about). But I know if I did that I'd want to progress and eventually I'd be jumping cliffs with a ram air chute. But some things like low height jumps just don't seem worth the risk to me. So I can see people progressing to wingsuits and proximity flying, but I hope they realize how much they are ratcheting up the risk.
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fear
Ice climber
hartford, ct
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Jul 15, 2015 - 11:23am PT
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That's the thing... they DO realize they're ratcheting up the risk. Same reason the vast majority of us will be leading ~5.10 on gear and not soloing 5.12 things on Red Rocks sandstone with Alex... The public still regards us "normal" ones as crazy.
Where you feel comfortable effectively soloing easy sections of rock, it's likely an accomplished BASE guy feels comfortable doing "regular" Base jumps.
Risk is a numbers game and I think we all like to fool ourselves a bit with the math from time to time.
A question for the BASE guys though... what % would you guess of the current crop of pilots actually fly wingsuits close to solids?
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 16, 2015 - 12:14pm PT
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Russian roulette is not a respectable type of risk taking.
OK. This statement sums it up fairly well. You guys keep posting about how risky it is. I'm not denying that it is risky. All I'm trying to do is discuss how to evaluate risk. Is it how many deaths per each jump?, or each climb? You guys seem to like per capita figures.
The Space Shuttle had two total losses out of 135 flights, killing 14 astronauts. That was one total failure each 67 flights. The Apollo missions were far riskier. We were lucky that Apollo 13 made it home. If there had been 135 Apollo flights, I wager that it would have been a lot worse than the Space Shuttle.
Every year people die on Everest, even though they have no climbing experience and are just jugging a fixed line. The odds there are certainly worse than wingsuiting on a per capita basis.
I knew Rob Slater, who died on K2 with others. Did you know that the most dangerous 8000 meter peak is actually Annapurna?
Now we have extreme alpinists who do futuristic routes up some of the lower Himilayan peaks. Those guys die. If they keep at it, for their whole lives, they almost certainly will die doing it.
In my opinion alpine climbing in Chamonix was more dangerous than BASE (non wingsuit). Certainly more people died. In 1984, they averaged a death per day on the entire massif. One evening, on the approach to the Dru, I watched 3 rescues going on at the same time from the steps of the Charpoua Hut. I knew the temporary hut-keeper, a Belgian named Benoit, who befriended me. Benoit died a few weeks later soloing on 4th class ground, taken out by a big rockfall.
How many have died on El Cap? There was that one a few weeks back, but there have been many others, on the Nose alone. The Nose has almost no objective danger. Good pro abounds. The only thing that will kill you is a mistake or bad weather. I know of one Jap team who froze on the last pitch, but it seems like there was a previous jap team who froze in the same place. I know of an incident from the 70's, where they dropped their haulbag from the stovelegs, and it ripped their badly made anchor.
More than that have died, I am sure. Yet only 3 have died jumping it out of probably 2000 jumps, and all 3 would not have been allowed if it were an organized event, with minimum requirements. An experienced jumper, with modern gear, could, in my mind, jump El Cap every day until he retired in his 70's. It is that safe of a jump. Overhung, high, simple. Just open high enough to clear the trees. I've done it quite a few times, and it was Wonderful experience. When you start tracking, the wall just recedes away from you. and you pull level with El Cap tower, a couple of hundred yards to the jumper's right. It is so steep that you open a couple of hundred feet from the wall. Plenty of time to turn around. Very simple. Half Dome is also safe, but we used to use a much more overhung part of the wall than today's guys. We thought that the Visor was unsafe.
They aren't that different from a low skydive.
Wingsuiters are dying right and left right now. They are pushing it so close to the limit that if they make the slightest error in judgment, they can die. It isn't just beginners that are dying with Wingsuits. We are seeing some of the very best die.
This will hopefully sort itself out. Nobody wants to die. The lines will get refined, and there is little difference from being safely 20 feet from the wall rather than being 3 feet from the ground or wall.
Wingsuiting right now is pretty hairy, just from the numbers and who the jumpers were, but it is like most things. You can make it as dangerous or safe as you like. A choice.
We've all done that type of thing. Soloing, for example. Everyone does it, pretty much, despite the knowledge of what happened to Derek, Bachar, and others who ended up with traumatic head injuries instead of death.
Unless you are a downright nimrod, you have accepted certain risks. The difference is that these risks, just like terrain flying, are not objective risks. They are subjective risks. Those that you choose to accept by upping the game.
Wingsuiting is all over TV and Youtube. You don't see 200 safe jumps because it gets boring.
It isn't the most dangerous thing on Earth, though it may be the coolest thing on Earth.
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Jul 16, 2015 - 02:45pm PT
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I always enjoy your intelligent posts BASE104.
Statistics aren't the best way to judge the true risk of A jump. An experienced, safety minded jumper on El Cap is way different than a risk taker doing his first jump at Perrine without real instruction. But as a whole they do help you compare for example rock climbing (including everything from sport to free solo) and BASE (everything from El Cap, to low altitude jumps).
Perception and media presentation has a lot to do with it perceived risk. You can watch a BASE jump video and it looks sketchy, while a climber on Everest just looks like they're plodding up the hill. As you mentioned Everest is much riskier statistically but you don't often hear people calling those climbers suicidal or crazy.
The Nose has plenty of loose rock that could kill you. And it's very tough to climb that without people above you. You just have to accept that objective risk.
Terrain flying is adding subjective risk. But that also adds objective risk because the tolerance for error is much less. If there's gust of wind or an inversion layer of different density air it may not matter hundreds of feet away from El Cap, but it may be catastrophic 10s of feet from the ground.
One of the really cool things about terrain flying is being at the right place and time with the skill to get in and out of harms way. They are too close to the ground to do anything but fly it out but then go over a big cliff where they have plenty of room to deploy. It reminds me of big wave surfing. If you do it the right way you get this massive, amazing ride and simply ride it out with no real impact to your body. But if you screw up you get smashed. Some ski descents are the same way, picking line of soft powder through big cliffs, airing it out and landing on a soft steep patch of snow, finding a line of relative ease through a minefield of death. It's that threading the needle of life that's so cool but also so dangerous.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 17, 2015 - 08:42am PT
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Yeah, I agree that it is hard to compare apples and oranges. If it was easy, my post would have been much shorter. There are so many risky things. Society accepts some, like the Space Shuttle disasters, but spurns others. Has anyone read the comments sections beneath online stories? Most people are afraid of the dark, much less able to do something risky, no matter how amazing it is.
A lot of it is fear of the unknown. What is unknown for me might be very well known for you. Or the other way around. Wingsuiting is new, only 10 or 15 years old. These men and women are pushing the limit. Like pioneers of old, they know about the danger. Geez, people die on lines that get flown all of the time, just like deaths on mountains didn't stop the first to climb them. It is fundamental human psychology.
Certain people accept more risk than others. Always, and I mean ALWAYS, there have been critics who said that it was like Russian roulette.
A bunch of people died trying to do the first ascent of the N Face of the Eiger. It seemed synonymous with death. Now dudes run up it in less than 3 hours, which is amazing, because it is sooooo big. It isn't a death sentence anymore.
The Eiger is a big deal with regard to BASE. It has an incredible amount of vertical relief. Dean, with his amazing wingspan, set the record for the longest wingsuit flight in the world there (it has now been broken, of course). In the U.S., the highest relief is Notch Peak, in Utah, which now gets wingsuited a lot.
Hell, ask Chris Mac about his experience on Notch Peak with a wingsuit. He had a close call there. Yes, people die there, too, but it doesn't just stop it.
It is all changing and growing very quickly. So much is unknown. It will take about 20 years to get a perspective on wingsuiting. I can imagine a day when it becomes much safer.
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deschamps
Gym climber
Flagstaff, AZ
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Jul 22, 2015 - 09:56am PT
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you must climb in a gym?
If you think for one moment climbing is risk free you are a complete moron. Even in a gym people have been seriously hurt or killed.
Heseinberg - You misread my post. I didn't say that climbing is risk-free.
Yes I do climb in a gym among other places.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Jul 22, 2015 - 09:10pm PT
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hey there say, high fructose corn syrup... oh my, :( i just saw this article, too...
my condolences to the family and loved ones and buddies, :(
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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Jul 23, 2015 - 07:57am PT
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A really close friend of mine died on 7/10 on a wingsuit flight in Switzerland.
We skydived together for years, and he was probably the most gifted skydiver that I ever met. He could do anything. Somehow he got into BASE later on, after I gave up skydiving to pay for diapers.
I knew that he had gotten into wingsuiting, and told him to be careful, but as I said, even the best are dying wingsuit flying. Right now there is a rash of deaths happening.
So don't think that I'm immune to what is happening.
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Bad Climber
climber
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 23, 2015 - 11:47am PT
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Hey, sorry, BASE, that hurts. Condolences.
BAd
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snakefoot
climber
Nor Cal
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Jul 23, 2015 - 12:08pm PT
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Base, as you know, this year has been horrendous and who knows whats next at this point. Jhonathen F was legend and we were just playing in swtiz before the races. traggic with Ian also. All this makes me sick to my stomache...
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Trad climber
Shitalkqua, WA
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Jul 23, 2015 - 09:49pm PT
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I have an issue with the wingsuit races, and acrobatic competitions now prevalent in Europe (WWL).
With more prize money and sponsorships on the line, we are set to see the biggest bloodbath in the history of BASE.
The comp promoters lining their pockets at the expense of true flyers.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 23, 2015 - 11:04pm PT
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We all get to forge our own paths through this world. That's how it works.
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ß Î Ø T Ç H
Trad climber
Shitalkqua, WA
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Jul 23, 2015 - 11:53pm PT
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The whole BASE/ wingsuit community has such a microscope up their ass right now tho, so many dumb deaths already.
It's sanctioned suicide at this point.
They might want to police themselves a little more before the authorities step in.
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Jul 23, 2015 - 11:59pm PT
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And what of climbers? what of high altitude mountaineers and big wave surfers?
People know what they are getting into. The authorities would only get involved because of selfish as#@&%es wanting to control what others did with their lives. I hurt a sh#t load about this but understand it is the human condition and that I'm not perfect because my danger is 'less' danger.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Jul 24, 2015 - 05:44am PT
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At least BASE jumpers do not have passengers.
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