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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 09:43am PT
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I did not know he was prohibited from owning firearms....
for what reason?
got a source I can read where you got this from?
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Barbarian
climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 09:53am PT
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My only offering to this thread is as follows:
My thoughts, and prayers go out to the families and friends of those who were murdered. My heartfelt wish is that each of you is able to find the peace to overcome this tragic impact to your life.
The rest of you can back to arguing now.
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EdwardT
Trad climber
Retired
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Jun 19, 2015 - 10:02am PT
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My thoughts, and prayers go out to the families and friends of those who were murdered.
Thanks Barbarian. My thoughts, too.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 10:08am PT
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Once again we have a mass murderer on Psych Meds.
And once again we also have political forces trying to exploit and take advantage of tragedy to get their licks in.
My condolences to the families of the victims.
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Rockies Obscure
Trad climber
rockiesobscure.com....Canada
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Jun 19, 2015 - 10:58am PT
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Speaking of guns, off topic.
I recently visited Wagon Wheel boulders in California.
What is the obsession with shooting at glass bottles on BLM land, that everyone says they care so much about. As if.
Place looks like a dump.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:01am PT
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Gun laws are definitely screwed up in this country. There should be more regulations as to who can own a gun. The kid was obviously a withdrawn and angry individual yet he got a gun for his birthday? Without the access to the gun he would most likely just jump off a bridge which would do the society a favor.
Our gun laws are imperfect, since in a perfect world, no one would need a firearm. In a broken world, no one with a dangerous mental illness would have access to a firearm. In our real world, neither happens.
The anti-gun propaganda trotted out whenever we have this sort of evil incident intentionally overlooks some key facts:
For example, gun violence per capita has been decreasing in the United States:
People like to say we have the highest rate of gun violence for developed countries (whatever "developed" means), but, again, the statistics they trot out don't account for population. Of course the United States has more gun violence than, say, Finland. We have more people, too. When adjusted for population, the statistics tell a much difference story. The following table includes only countries in the OECD so they are, presumably, "developed:"
The perpetrator committed an evil act. If we had better gun control, what would have prevented him from simply burning the church down or blowing it up?
I don't own a firearm, and never have, so I don't think I qualify as a "gun nut." I simply get tired of people trying to exploit evil acts for agendas that don't really fit. It reminds me of the Kennedy assassination, when the haters blamed Dallas when they should have blamed a madman.
Then there is the "Christian" angle. Is this terrorism caused by Christians, directed at them Christians, or something else?
I guess I'm just tired of all the half-baked political analysis while the bodies are still warm. Instead of mourning the tragedy, we simply misuse it to attack those with whom we disagree. For shame!
John
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:04am PT
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To say that this guy or any of the other ones will find a way to get a gun, even with more rigid gun laws, is nothing more than a unsubstantiated statement. I'm not buying the, they grew up watching violence, either.
We have a percentage of youth and grownups that kill. Their choice of weapons that enable them to kill the most amd fastest is a gun.
To be clear, this was race motivated. He drove by hundreds of churches on his way there knowing where he was going and who would be inside there.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:08am PT
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what would have prevented him from simply burning the church down or blowing it up?
His stupidity.
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crankster
Trad climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:13am PT
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Jun 19, 2015 - 09:53am PT
My only offering to this thread is as follows:
My thoughts, and prayers go out to the families and friends of those who were murdered. My heartfelt wish is that each of you is able to find the peace to overcome this tragic impact to your life.
The rest of you can back to arguing now.
This is the problem...people who never want to debate or argue the issue of racism and/or gun violence. Just go about your day...until it happens again.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:14am PT
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This is the problem...people who never want to debate or argue the issue of racism and/or gun violence. Just go about your day...until it happens again.
Racism is evil. Gun violence is deplorable. The Second Amendment is the law. Irrational people sometimes do horrible things.
Carry on.
John
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Norton
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:22am PT
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Does the quite easy access to firearms in America have anything to do with firearm related
deaths, JohnE?
Do you think there is any relationship between, say, a state like Massachusetts having the most restrictive gun laws and also the least gun deaths versus a state like Alaska having
the least restrictive gun laws and most gun deaths, give or take those state's current respective rankings?
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:25am PT
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Of course it does, Norton, but that horse left the barn centuries ago. How do you propose to change the easy access to firearms now, with 88 privately-owned firearms per 100 people, in a way that doesn't leave those who shouldn't have firearms having possession of the greatest number of firearms?
Also, when it comes to "mass killings," do you think that the number of non-firearm related homicides would increase if firearms were more difficult to obtain, Norton?
John
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:31am PT
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He was already prohibited. He got a gun anyway
You missed where I said, with more rigid gun laws.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:38am PT
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This countries weird obsession with firearms has led to far too many senseless deaths and is an embarrassment to all who live here.
It's not an embarrassment to me nor to anybody I know. It's not an "obsession," nor is it "weird." So, wrong on all counts.
And please enlighten us about which proposed anti-gun laws would have prevented this tragedy.
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10b4me
Social climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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What is the obsession with shooting at glass bottles on BLM land
because they can
that everyone says they care so much about.
"everyone" is a relative term.
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Barbarian
climber
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:40am PT
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This is the problem...people who never want to debate or argue the issue of racism and/or gun violence. Just go about your day...until it happens again.
Crankster - you misunderstood. I did not say that I was unwilling to debate or argue those issues. I am more than willing to do so as they are issues that need to be discussed. I simply prefer to have those discussions in a forum where that discussion has value. In other words....not here.
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johnboy
Trad climber
Can't get here from there
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Jun 19, 2015 - 11:49am PT
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I own several fire arms and would not be happy to loose my right to them. To many times it only takes the acts of a few to screw it up for the rest of us. This is where we are probably headed. If we refuse to except a few small changes and to self regulate ourselves better then get ready for more intrusive laws that neither of us want.
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Rockies Obscure
Trad climber
rockiesobscure.com....Canada
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Jun 19, 2015 - 12:01pm PT
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because they can
10b4me,
Yes they can of course so can BLM should shut down areas when they get trashed? You guys would know better than me, I was just visiting, but New Jack was 'cared for' also a bit, but Wagon Wheel was likely the most dumpy area I have been to in California, speaking of broken glass everywhere.
To me it makes any rules posted by BLM laughable.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 19, 2015 - 12:07pm PT
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A new law needs to hit the books...
One that says something along the lines of...
You can't give a gun to a fuked up, bigot, NUTCASE...
Unenforceable in principle. Sorry.
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madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Denver, CO
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Jun 19, 2015 - 12:13pm PT
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If we refuse to except a few small changes and to self regulate ourselves better then get ready for more intrusive laws that neither of us want.
"They" can make all the laws "they" want to. Such laws (including the existence or non-existence of the second amendment) have no effect upon the reality of inalienable rights. No other country in the world was designed upon the realization and intention to uphold and protect inalienable rights.
All other countries have constitutions that presume that governments grant rights, and thus that governments can take them away. Our government was designed in unique fashion, whereby the definition of tyranny was built in: ANY government that fails to uphold and protect inalienable rights is tyrannical, regardless of how "benevolent" it might appear to any particular subset of the governed.
So, yes, a tiny few cause we the people a great deal of anguish and distress. But that fact is irrelevant to inalienable rights which any legitimate government must uphold and protect. So, let "them" pass or undo any law or amendment they choose. When they dink around with the right of self-defense (which logically presumes the right to the means of it), "they" only invalidate their own actions and show "themselves" to be tyrannical and worthy of overthrow.
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