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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2015 - 11:38pm PT
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I dunno. The line on that is unclear. Yoyo is probably the best term for it.
I bet Kurt Albert never hung his draws.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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So if you stick clip, fall, don't pull the rope and climb from a stance you are lowered to is it technically a pink point yoyo ascent?
Scheißepunkt...
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2015 - 11:51pm PT
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Whatever you call it, they still did it free, and that's badass.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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I agree, leads with pre-hung draws are really pinkpoint.
When I say "pre-hung" I am not talking about permadraws (chain draws or rope draws at very steep crags).
1. I think the first reason that people started calling pinkpoint leads "redpoint" is that it can be a hassle to remove draws from steep climbs between attempts.
And the very steep crags usually have permadraws which are not supposed to be removed.
"redpoint" means "all non-fixed pro is placed during the successful lead".
So you don't have to place the bolts or hangers during the lead; they are usually fixed. (At Arapiles at one time the bolts were fixed but hangers were not!).
At very steep crags with permadraws, those are fixed, so that's a redpoint.
So it's a definition that depends very much on "what is fixed".
2. This brings up the second reason that people may choose to call a pinkpoint a redpoint - if climbing on permadraws is what they are most accustomed to, why not do it the same way at less steep crags?
3. And of course the all-important third reason - you can "redpoint" a harder rating if the draws are in place! (The self delusion factor).
4. Fourth reason - I think it would be fine to call any climb with biners in place that you clip the rope through a pink point (including routes with permadraws). So pinkpoint is the best you can do on those climbs unless you go to extremes and remove the permadraws temporarily for your redpoint lead (a related complication is that bolt locations may be planned with the permadraw in mind, so it may be even harder to clip the hanger). However, it may be a hassle to say pinkpoint for some routes and redpoint for others, when you did the best possible on all of them. Maybe just say "freed" or "sent" to imply best possible. (There's also onsight and "a vue" for improved version of these, too...).
By the way, the second definition of rotpunkt that you quoted above is the more correct one. There is a missing part of the history with Kurt Albert, though, the rotkreis. This was a red circle painted at the base when someone led a route yoyo style. Then if a later person climbed it in redpoint style, they filled in the circle (painting in a a red dot/point).
Clipping your own draws into permadraws sounds like a fair amount of hassle for little gain. Once the permadraws are there, you can clip them or grab them if you are desperate. It's kind of like soloing with a fixed line nearby that you can grab if you get sketched? :-)
As others have said, just describe what you did precisely if you think it is important. Sometimes the regular words work fine, and sometimes when the fixed gear is strange, being more detailed helps.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Big Mike-
Now try and bring back the Fanny Pack.
I dare you.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 12:17am PT
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Clipping your own draws into permadraws sounds like a fair amount of hassle for little gain. Once the permadraws are there, you can clip them or grab them if you are desperate. It's kind of like soloing with a fixed line nearby that you can grab if you get sketched? :-)
Agreed. It's all semantics to be certain. Since it was such a hotly debated topic when i brought it up at the crag tonight, i knew it would make for an interesting discussion here.
Besides ... It 's been a little boring around here lately.. Lol
No fanny packs!! ;)
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WindRiverWildman
Trad climber
N. Colorado
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I think the idea brought up about someone going back and red pointing any of these routes is interesting. Will anyone care? Or will the masses (of climbers) just think of it as a second ascent?
Yes, I think people will care. People care when a climb is done in a way that is more difficult - for example, people care when an aid climb is freed.
We personally care when we go back and climb a climb without falling or hanging on gear.
These are just definitions which indicate degree of difficulty. But climbers get all huffy because they extrapolate it to a judgement instead of a definition. A pinkpoint isn't "bad", it's just not as hard as a redpoint of the same route.
It's really no different than the grade of a climb. A 5.11b is harder than a 5.11a. But saying a climb is 5.11b doesn't diminish the value of a 5.11a - or the accomplishment of climbing a 5.11a.
The definitions help us measure the progression of the skills of climbers and of climbing as a sport:
Aid
Free - pinkpoint
Free - redpoint
Free Solo
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 12:27am PT
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Aid
Free - pinkpoint
Free - redpoint
Free - Flash
Free - Onsight
Free Solo
Agree entirely, but i think you missed a couple.
Worth repeating.
These are just definitions which indicate degree of difficulty. But climbers get all huffy because they extrapolate it to a judgement instead of a definition. A pinkpoint isn't "bad", it's just not as hard as a redpoint of the same route.
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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Aid
Free - toprope
Free - followed
Free - yoyoed
Free - pinkpoint
...
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Without going back and redpointing this thread...
Mike, has it been mentioned that you botched the thread title again?
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 12:32am PT
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Aid
Free - toprope
Free - tronsight
Free - followed
Free - yo-yo
Free - pinkpoint
Free - redpoint
Free - Flash
Free - Onsight
Free Solo
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Topic Author's Reply - May 7, 2015 - 12:37am PT
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Without going back and redpointing this thread...
Mike, has it been mentioned that you botched the thread title again?
Lol! How?
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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pink point is obsolete term. has been for about a decade.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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you got too mant terms and rulze. just go climbing you will enjoy it more.
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Gnome Ofthe Diabase
climber
Out Of Bed
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There have always been and I'm sure there still are,
some very pure climbers who never Weight the Rope!
Beyond that
the bare-foot cordless,
if you consider that the
Minimalist style is the highest or most "pure" Style.
I embrace the entire technology and history of climbing,including using every new found technology to further the endeavor
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Jon Clark
climber
philadelphia
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Aid
Free - toprope
Free - tronsight
Free - followed
Free - yo-yo
Free - pinkpoint
Free - redpoint
Free - Flash
Free - Onsight
Free Solo
You should add Onsight Free Solo to your list.
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Alpamayo
Trad climber
Davis, CA
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It's sport climbing. Who cares if clipping quickdraws makes it harder? Clipping harder is not the point, climbing harder is. The term "pinkpoint", in sport climbing anyway, hasn't been relevant for a couple of decades.
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Five15Factor2
climber
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What about if I lower and pull the rope. Then on my subsequent attempt, I unclip the draw from the hanger, and re-clip it to the hanger before clipping the rope. Could I call that a red-point if I do it for each pre-hung draw?
Do I need to let the gate on the biner close before I clip it back to the hanger or can i just remove it from the hanger then put it back?
Should I clip it back to my gear loop? This would actually be harder than just taking the draw off the gear loop (does that mean that this pre-hung-removal style is actually better than a redpoint?). Can I just bring the draw down to my gear loop and not actually clip it to my gear loop, then clip it to the hanger?
Can I just wave my hand around the pre-hung draw for the 1.5sec it takes to take a draw off my harness and clip it to a hanger?
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Vitaliy M.
Mountain climber
San Francisco
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To claim a true red point you take the draw off do a jumping jack and than clip it back in.
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