Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
mhay
climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 07:01pm PT
|
If Scott had his rope remain clipped into his lower bolts would he still have hit the ground when the bolt he was on broke?
The bottom of that photo is about 10' above the ground. I think he probably would not have decked. The first bolt is about 15+' off the ground, and spacing between bolts was about 6'. So if the bolt did not break until we was right at it he would be about 27-30' off the ground, with a 12'-plus stretch fall.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 07:05pm PT
|
Wow.
TWO accidents resulting from people failing to clip bolts in less than two weeks, right here on this forum. And this accident fatal.
Why do people skip bolts? It makes no sense!
If Scott had been following standard lead rope solo techniques - instead of trying to "re-invent the wheel" by using this risky shortcut - he would be here, writing this post himself, and preaching to all of us the lunacy of trusting one's life to but a single bolt.
The whole idea in climbing is to build REDUNDANCY into your system, but Scott's system had none, and he paid the ultimate price.
Young Bulls - pay attention and learn!
How incredibly sad. My condolences to Scott's friends and family.
Pete Zabrok
Ontario, Canada
|
|
Greg Barnes
climber
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Mar 17, 2015 - 07:20pm PT
|
Dan & Marty unscrewed one of the 3/8" 5-pieces and saw only very minimal rust (23 years old now). Obviously this can be location dependent, I've seen significantly rusted bolts in Owens, although minimal rust is much more common (it's pretty dang dry down there).
As Marty's Owens guidebooks have said for decades, "Bolts should be 3/8" or larger in diameter." It should be noted however that 5/16" buttonheads were rated nearly as strong as 3/8" bolts (in fact they were actually stronger than some 3/8" bolts) and they were considered perfectly bomber at that time.
Here are two more photos of the broken section of bolt, Dan's camera wasn't focusing that well so he brought it over to Kevin Calder who took these photos:
|
|
WBraun
climber
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 07:34pm PT
|
Thanks for the reply's Ben909, Franky and mhay.
Maybe Scott was too confident about bolts?
Maybe he's never broken one or had a partner break one?
They can break when you least expect?
I backed one up once because my partner was going to rap off it since that's all there was, one bolt.
Slung a boulder with webbing for back up and equalized.
The bolt broke and made a loud noise.
He was 2/3 of the way down the rappel.
If the bolt had not been backed up ..... DEATH!
|
|
Roger Brown
climber
Oceano, California
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 07:42pm PT
|
Just for information. Just micrometered a few bolts and;
10mm Fixi double wedge 10mm diameter bolt, 10.67 at the biggest part (Part that grabs)
3/8 Wedge Bolt, 9.57 diameter bolt, 11.36 at the biggest part
3/8 Buttonhead, 9.27 diameter bolt, 12.37 at the biggest part
3/8 Buttonhead, driven onto a Petzl hanger last year 9.27 diameter bolt
11.64 at biggest part. ( now that's weird)
3/8 Five-Piece, 9.83 diameter sleeve, 12.67 at the biggest part (Cone screwed into sleeve)
Wedge bolt screwed down till out of threads. Stamped A (Shortest one)
15/16 total amount of bolt in rock
|
|
grover
climber
Castlegar BC
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:12pm PT
|
Does anyone know what type of hanger was on the bolt?
Thanks
Mark
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:15pm PT
|
it was a Metolius hanger, no rust.
|
|
rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:23pm PT
|
Thanks for that. All you need to see is that first photo. The mode of failure is obvious.
So sorry for the loss of family and friends.
|
|
grover
climber
Castlegar BC
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:26pm PT
|
Thanks Franky
|
|
phylp
Trad climber
Upland, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 08:30pm PT
|
Huge thanks to everyone for the accident analysis. It is extremely valuable and especially to someone like myself who is fairly ignorant of the differences amoung bolts.
I love climbing everywhere on the east side of the Sierra and do my fair share of bolt clipping. If I knew how to rebolt I would join the effort but since I don't I will do the only thing I can do and make an extra contribution to the Asca this year. I didn't know Scott but this accident hits close to home. It won't be any consolation to those who lost him, but it may make a tiny difference in the big picture.
Thanks again , Greg.
|
|
Urmas
Social climber
Sierra Eastside
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 09:25pm PT
|
I agree. Kris has placed a lot of these, as I have, and I hesitate to disagree with him. Most of the Rawl 5/16 buttonheads I placed pounded in easily. Tapering the hole would have had no point. A few, however, went in hard, with the head deforming slightly from the hammer blows. These are probably suspect. This often happened with a bit that had been shortened by repeated sharpening. They start out with a reverse taper - to reduce binding - which is lost as the bit gets filed shorter.
|
|
Srbphoto
climber
Kennewick wa
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 09:33pm PT
|
I can't help but to think back on the recent interview with Croft and Honnold. How Croft thought Honnold was crazy clipping into bolts (while soloing) because "bolts can break".
Thanks for all the work and providing an education to us.
RIP Scott
|
|
Juan Maderita
Trad climber
"OBcean" San Diego, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 09:38pm PT
|
I doubt that any manufacturer would advise the practice of making the entrance to the hole larger. Nevertheless, after having placed hundreds in granite, I can say the clear choice was to create an oval hole for the first 1/4" or having the rock spall out 3/8" deep 360 degrees around. Using a rotohammer, we would rock the bit side to side, horizontally, for the first couple seconds. The 5/16" buttonhead was inserted with the split in the horizontal orientation, so the widest part of the split shaft contacts the wide sides of the hole. That practice reduced spalling significantly.
|
|
Rick Sylvester
Trad climber
Squaw Valley, California
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 09:54pm PT
|
The idea of fully committing to a single bolt, even the modern 3/8 inch ones which seem so awesome and trustworthy considering the 1/4" ones which were by and large all I and my generation had, has always seemed a very daunting proposition to me. I think I first became aware of such a practice in regards to someone -- I've forgotten the name; I think it might have been an East European -- employing similar tactics, more or less ropeless, so as to move fast to set a speed record on a predominantly aid, i.e. every piece get weighted, El Cap route. It was brought to mind again while watching the footage of Alex Honnold on Mt. Watkins' South face as part of his incredible solo big walls trilogy within 24 hours accomplishment. Alex is known for taking as much risk out of his solos as possible due to usually having rehearsal climbed them before, often several times, working out the moves and sequences, cleaning where necessary, etc. I'm wondering if part of that process when some aid not just free climbing is involved, as on the above trilogy, entails carefully inspecting the fixed gear. But of course the problem is that such inspections can never be perfect.
|
|
MisterE
Gym climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 10:05pm PT
|
Nice post Rick.
A single button-head. I just can't imagine trusting my life to ONE BOLT. Could he maybe not see the condition or type of bolt from the stick-clip stance below?
Regardless, isn't one of our prime directives redundancy? I can't get my head around this one, but am distressed nonetheless.
|
|
Flydude
Trad climber
Prather, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 10:27pm PT
|
5/16" buttonheads were very popular at Courtright in 80's and there are an abundance of routes that still sport this equipment. I remember that they could be tricky to place on lead without some spauling and it was not unusual to come across some placed in holes that were too shallow.
I'd sure be happy to host an event there in learning how to remove these dudes and replace with solid equipment.
Greg, thanks for this update and let me know how I can help.
|
|
franky
Trad climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 10:51pm PT
|
MisterE,
I think you touch on an interesting point,
The hanger on this particular bolt looked bomber and the head didn't show any obvious signs of corrosion externally. I think most climbers are suspect of buttonheads, but also know that the 5/16 and 3/8 versions can be very strong.
The point being, the bolt wasn't obviously bad.
|
|
bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 11:06pm PT
|
Greg,
I would have replied to your request for routes with 5/16" buttonheads sooner, but I was out rebolting. The route Alchemist's Revenge on Pennyroyal Arches has 5/16" buttonheads.
I still have about eight or so of these when I was using them(in Colorado) in the late 80's. Does it make sense to do some testing or should they all just get replaced?
|
|
wstmrnclmr
Trad climber
Bolinas, CA
|
|
|
Mar 17, 2015 - 11:10pm PT
|
1st pitch of Greasy but Groovy has them....
Also Boltway....Probably the most popular route in TM but you won't catch me replacing them.......
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!