Ammon's House of Cards

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Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 11:49am PT

Less boring than most recent threads.

Ammon,
I don't think you have really responded to SG's criticism.
While reliable beta for routes in Zion can be difficult to obtain, and while your nailing "transgression" minor, the greater issue of hammering on a route that can be done without has not been addressed.
So too with Healy's pertinant point of sandstone fragility.

And you already know how I feel about the need for speed compromising careful removal technique.

What say you TO THE ISSUES?

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Sep 12, 2006 - 11:50am PT

Ammon wrote:

yes Hardman, I did call Ricardo out. He is a friend of mine and I was doing it in a “give your friend a little shit” way... and find out some info. There is a big difference in the tone of my post to Ricardo, and this one.

I just pointed it out because when I first read your post, I didn't get the sense that
you were "just giving your friend a little shit". I could be wrong, but the fact is that
you deleted it shortly after - and Ricardo felt the need to start another thread to
publicly respond. Since it was deleted, it is knott possible to go back and re-read
(which helps illuminate my strong distaste for the ability to delete entire threads).

In any event, anyone who does the Quad Dipsea (Mill Valley) is OK in my book. ;-)

WBraun

climber

Sep 12, 2006 - 11:51am PT

Yes, Steve you made a terrible mistake of ensuing a personal attack on Ammon. It just made people see you in the light of an extreme egotist even though that was not your real intention.

Steve, clean climbing in Yosemite has taken a front burner and the conscientious effort of the climbing community is striving constantly towards this. The amount of hammer nailing is continually going down each year as people become more experienced and the tools are becoming more advanced for clean ascents.

climber

The Eye of the Snail

Sep 12, 2006 - 11:56am PT

Ahh, the internet. Repository of all human knowledge and domain of all those without any.

Yo present and accounted for ... SIR!

k-man

Gym climber

SCruz

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:04pm PT

...the climbing stores hardly sell pins these days, and hardly anyone gives a sh*t about the nuances of "clean" climbing versus "nailing" and all the shades in-between.

Gag me with a spoon...

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:04pm PT

Ammon,
My position on ethics and style is simply pure unadulterated old school. You can characterize me any way you like but deal with the substance of what I am saying directly.
I have no doubt that if you had left the iron on the ground in this case then you would have worked it out. Are you still willing to say at this point, with the specifics in front of you, that choosing to mar the route by pounding a pin here was the only or best option available to you? My contention here remains that haste or the lack of a clear ethical position on your part eroded your otherwise solid judgement leading to my inquiry. This is fencing with the tips on brother. As you have built a house of cards around "efficient" climbing and seem willing to contradict your own core values to move a little faster here and there I am left wondering what you take away from the indiscretion when little regret is evident in your words.
To hate speed climbing and by extension speed climbers is utterly pointless. Once this framework fosters poor style, poor judgement and destructive tactics (especially when routes are done repeatedly for a better time) the whole thing collapses. If you just can't be bothered, that is why the gauntlet is on the ground. While it is a rusty and venerable old thing forged for battle by visionary pioneers during the Golden Era (pre Bridwell)it still has weight and relevence and can produce a mightly dust cloud when it lands on the battlefield. I really shouldn't have to club you with it. Again, deal with substance.
As regards the Turning Point, the first "bolt ladder" shows up on pitch 13. Is that the one your friends freed? If so, good for them. With the exception of pitch 3 (which aids up a tiny dihedral just left of the second pitch of the Nose) virtually all the pitches below the exit right from the Half Dollar were established free on the first ascent without the use of chalk. My low impact ethic means leave no trace and I repeated many of the hardest Valley face climbing testpieces chalkless. By pitch, the hardman's start to the Free Blast goes as follows: 5.11a, 5.11c, 5.10a A3, 5.11c, 5.11c A-0, 5.11a and on to the Salathe boltladder two pitches below the Half Dollar. If that is your best shot fella, good luck finding your singed little toes.

Hardman Knott

Gym climber

Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:09pm PT

Bring on the (clmbing related) blistering repartee!

maculated

Trad climber

San Luis Obispo, CA

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:15pm PT

Frankly, I don't care about this thread, but wow, Ammon:

"You saying that I have an ego about my accomplishments is a direct result of what you think about yourself. Why? Because you do not know me. You could never truly know someone from their writing."

That one really resonates with me. Good stuff.

Euroford

Trad climber

Chicago, IL

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:25pm PT

and the house of cards comes crashing down! damn you ammon, you scum of the earth!

look what trouble you've stirred up now! a 50 post thread on supertopo! all hell breaks loose! its over buddy!

TradIsGood

Fun-loving climber

the Gunks end of the country

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:31pm PT

mar the route by pounding a pin

Is this an assumption or a fact? Is there some sort of evidence to back up this claim?

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:31pm PT

Hey Ron,
Its been a long time man. Thanks for steering the cattle drive back up canyon. I know that you have spent a lot of time and energy trying to preserve and protect the soft rock environment by getting climbers to think first. If nobody speaks up then the crap and damage keeps piling up and sliding downhill. If you really care, raise your voice and be heard. The dialog is far more important than the perceived bickering.

Ben Rumsen

Social climber

No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:49pm PT

" How about all the numourous parties doing Zodiac, Trip, Shield, New Dawn, PO, Dihedral, Ten Days After, etc, etc, etc...that nail? Why not bitch at them too? " -

Watched 2 guys climb TDA last year. They were having a great time. They did some nailing. Watched 2 guys bail off it this year. They weren't having a great time. They had no pins.

Me, I'm going to repeat an obscure aid line in Yosemite in a few weeks and I plan on nailing where ever I need to. I like nailing. And I don't care what anybody thinks. Many routes wouldn't exist without pitons for the initial few ascents, now would they? I don't even know who Steve Grossman is - should I??

Hell, I need to carry a hammer to clean offset nuts and stoppers. I can't clean climb without a hammer!!

Roger Breedlove

climber

Cleveland Heights, Ohio

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:55pm PT

Ben=troll

Steve Grossman

Trad climber

Seattle, WA

Topic Author's Reply - Sep 12, 2006 - 12:57pm PT

WBraun,
Why is it that challenging someone on their stated views and accomplishments is considered an attack? We are people of substance here and none of this dialog has to be taken personally by the participants. I am sorry that this is the perception out there when I take a stand. You have been through all the same times as myself and heard the call to arms. "Better we raise ourselves than lower the climbs." I am truly inspired by those that do and seek to understand the contrarians out there. Climbers are anti-authoritarian and independent by nature so sometimes a little heat is required. I am the idiot bastard son of the American clean climbing scene and the tokens of my extreme in routes and ideas are intended to inspire introspection. If I had merely posted a treatise on clean aid I don't think much would come of it. I value your perspective and leadership immensely and don't feel like Ammon's person is the sacrificial lamb here.

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 12:57pm PT

Ben,
you said a mouthful;

"nailing where ever I need to. I like nailing. And I don't care what anybody thinks."

Hmmmm.

Seems to me that you are the poster boy for irresponsible climbers, the perfect justification for regulation.

Jonny D

Social climber

Lost Angelez, Kalifornia

Sep 12, 2006 - 01:01pm PT

thank you Dixie Gal, that was beautiful.

Ben Rumsen

Social climber

No Name City ( and it sure ain't pretty )

Sep 12, 2006 - 01:05pm PT

Really Ron? Let's see Steve do a second ascent of a route that takes 20 knife blades clean. How would one do an ascent of the rurp / beak pitch on Reticent Wall clean??

I like to do my best climbing but I'm not about to get injured or killed for " better ethics ". This is a f*#king sport, not a jihad!

Toker Villain

Big Wall climber

Toquerville, Utah

Sep 12, 2006 - 01:08pm PT

Ben,
does the inability to climb these lines without such tools justify their use when it is done without a plan for preserving the experience of those to follow?