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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:40pm PT
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Werner, you would not believe what people have had to go through with this to get it right!
It's still an uphill battle, because you have to fight well intensioned ingnorance as well as the graffiti vandals.
I'll say one more time that you have to apply the removal well and keep it wet for several hours for best results, and the newer the paint is the better. also, warmer temps are better than cooler for the stuff to work faster and better.
I'm glad that the info helps you.
Do what you can to spread the gospel of graffiti removal, now that you are enlightened, LOL!
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TradIsGood
Fun-loving climber
the Gunks end of the country
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Sep 11, 2006 - 08:43pm PT
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How do you know that the dots were marking the way down, and not up?
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ladd
Trad climber
land of fruits, nuts and flakes
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Sep 11, 2006 - 10:06pm PT
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LOL.. its the gunsight.. if you're there, WOW - cool, you just climbed something NICE.. get ready, aim - fire it, and ignore the blighters - they's one in every crowd...
cheers
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john hansen
climber
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Sep 11, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
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I suppose a wire brush or one of those plastic sanding wheels on a 12 volt drill might work on 2 or 3 inch marks.They would maybey need a little camo paint or some dirt rubbed into them. Could any of the painted rocks just be flipped over? Werner, would it be illegal to bring a drill like that into the backcountry, even if for a benevolent purpose.
Dirt has the best solution though.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 12, 2006 - 07:48am PT
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John, I hope you are joking about drills and wire brushes and camo paint. That is a disaster in the making. Painting over graffiti to camoflage it is a bad idea that gets in people's minds and won't leave, because it sounds simple and easy.
More paint is not the answer. You have to keep going back and touching it up. FOREVER. And it looks bad.
About removall,
ONE more time, and briefly, it is the binder in paint that removers work on. once the binder is gone and the pigment is driven into the rock, you have a big problem. Rubbing with rags or hard brushing can do this.
Given that gunsight is not at ground level, you will need some towels or paper towels to catch the removed paint as you rinse off the removall and paint crud. Spray with the sprayer set on stream, at an angle that is almost parallel to the rock, because you want to get under and lift the layer of goo.
IT's very important that your workers not get in a rush. The removal needs to stay on for possibly hours, and you should keep it wet with fresh coats. Since your paint is new, it may come off much sooner and will be MUCH easier than old paint.
Make some tests to find out the best working time for your situation before you go whole hog with a crew of helpers.
A nylon brush, like a tooth brush, used very lightly, along with the water, may help a little, it depends on how much binder there is and how well the paint loosens, but be very gentle and let the water do most of the work.
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pro_alien
Sport climber
Zurich, Switzerland
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Sep 12, 2006 - 08:43am PT
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Graffiti sux...
But there are situations where some judicious use of paint (flat red is more common here in Switzerland) can avoid dangerous detours and unnecessary social "fugowi" trails.
Was at Salbit (www.salbit.ch) this weekend. We spent a lovely night finding our way down a rappel route. Some small reflectors to point out the well hidden rappel anchors (one of them is under a block !) would have saved a few hours on our descent. We were lucky and conditions were balmy, but in bad weather our situation could have become dangerous.
Salbit hut - CHF 20
fresh batteries for the headlamp - CHF 3
moonlight rappel - priceless
What are a few bolts or paint dots compared to these wee holes ?
http://www.blsalptransit.ch/en/frameset_e.htm
http://www.alptransit.ch/pages/e/
Pascal
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:46pm PT
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There's an escalating notion that all "risk" should be removed from outdoor activities, including killing all the predators and rap bolting cracks--and now, spray painting markers down a long-used descent route. It's unlikely that whoever did the painting was just some palooka--those kinds usually stick to the standard trails, and don't come equiped with spray cans. The sad part is that in some minds this person thought they were rendering a service, while others will heap virtue on the effort for making things "safer."
I'm afraid thre's no turning back on this one till the wilderness is totally tamed--meaning it no longer exists.
JL
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 12, 2006 - 12:59pm PT
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WEll, that may be Largo, but I hope that this incident and the paint will be erradicated from the face of the rock, and that the perpetrators will be caught and strung up by their thumbs.
Let these Euros build a bigger gym in their own backyard, but don't bring that sh!t here.
Painting on the rock here is vandalism.
Finding your way is called adventure climbing, and if one can't stand the adventure aspect of climbing, especially on a trade route/descent route,then one should stick to single pitch sport climbing or better yet, the gym.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:50pm PT
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I don't know what a paloka is, but I was under the impression that it was relatively common for anglers to go up the Gunsight and know of a few peak bagger types who have sought it out as a 'climb'.
A couple of years back there was a fixed rope on the one short technical section of the Gunshight that had butterfly knotts spaced along it, seemingly for the purpose of going up.
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davidji
Social climber
CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 01:55pm PT
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Palooka: weak boxer, clumsy person.
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Largo
Sport climber
Venice, Ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 04:19pm PT
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Anglers going up the Gunsight? For what? To fish where?
I remember scrambling down the Gunsight after the first ascent of Mother Earth and don't even recall using a rope--and we were beat and had a pig with us? And so far as the spray paint goes, where do you think folks might get lost in there. They don't call it a Gunsight for nothing (as in straigh shot down). It boggles the mind . . .
JL
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 12, 2006 - 05:35pm PT
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I don't fish, but I was told that people liked to do it as part of their fishin' adventure in Bridleveil Creek...when I asked my partner what the rope ladder was for. I would guess that the steep fixed bit would still be scarier for a chubby old guy w/ a fishing rod than it was for you guys with your pigs just getting off of virgin 5.11+R A4 (or whatever scarey grade Mother Earth is rated...)
The (near?) impossibility of getting lost in the Gunsight once you're in it...especially if you had the skills to get yourself to the top of it...is why I figured that most climbers wouldn't want to bother. Did someone climb the E. Buttress of Lower with a can of spraypaint?
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Mr_T
Trad climber
Somewhere, CA
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Sep 12, 2006 - 09:14pm PT
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Anyone know how run out Mother Earth really is? What grade runouts w/ potential injury?
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:48am PT
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 02:22am PT
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Maybe it's that paint they use to mark stuff on road construction? It washes away in the rain?
Why am I painting orange dots in that cartoon, Ouch ? Hahaha
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telemama
Trad climber
midpines
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Sep 13, 2006 - 03:57am PT
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Re: questions about if people really go up the gunsight to fish...
Well, I am both a climber and an angler and I went up the Gunsight for both reasons (as an angler I won't divulge where I fished, but it's not hard to figure that one out). I'm not sure why fishing was brought up in the first place. I guess it was part of the witch hunt that is beginning to find the perpetrator. It could have been anyone.
Also, since the image of a fat fisherman was brought up...Imagine scrambling up talus with a 5ft. aluminum case on your back, banging into the rock and almost knocking you backwards as you lean a little too far forward as you ascend the rock. Then fishing all day. (Wait. I'd better explain that too. fishing doesn't always mean sitting in one spot all day, beer in hand, cooler close by. It also means: Casting while standing, rock hopping from pool to pool and bushwacking to the stream.)
Back to the fat fisherman in the Gunsight (who happens to be a petite woman in the gunsight, and two athletic fisherman)...
So, after ascending the Gunsight, fishing all day, re-fueling, the fat old fisherman then descends the Gunsight and gets back to the Valley Floor happy as can be.
So, just because someone isn't a "climber" doesn't mean they aren't fit and doesn't mean they don't love and respect Yosemite as much as the rock jocks. As I said, it could have been anyone. I just hope it doesn't happen again and it can get cleaned up properly.
Note: I'm not offended by the fat fisherman comment, just having a little fun and trying to educate those who really have that stereotype. PS, fishing s**cks, don't take it up.
Dirt: I'm a little skeptical about how environmentally safe this product is. To some standards Round Up is safe. I'll have to check out the product closely.
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Ouch!
climber
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Sep 13, 2006 - 04:13am PT
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"Why am I painting orange dots in that cartoon, Ouch ? Hahaha "
Werner, I guess to keep Karl on the right track. He wanders off route and you're in for a rescue. Looks like your aim might be kinda bad.
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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Sep 13, 2006 - 08:59am PT
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telemama, the main ingredients in Removall are glycerine and water, or so I was told. It washes off with water. Rewmovall has no methylene chlorode in it like most strippers (never use a methylene cholride stripper on rock, it dissolves the paint, makes a HUGE mess, and will fvck you up bad if you get it on you, breathe the fumes, or get some in your eye)
Removall 300 series claims you can get it on your hands and it is OK, Since I know a bunch of people who have done this, I sort of agree. You still want to wash it off, but it is NOT like The meth cloride at all, which I used on wood once upon a time.
Removall workes buy getting under the paint's binder and lifting the paint off the rock.
I still recommend using paper towels to catch the runnoff, cause otheriwse little bits of orange paint and the removall goop will be all over the place in a situation like gunsight.
Removall did not seem to hurt the plants around the test area, which was at a boudler field and close to the ground. We also used removal 320 extensivley at Sand Rock Alabama about three years ago, but the vandals appreciated the fresh canvas and quickly repainted.
Those test patch pics are 4 years old, and the rock is sandstone. there is no damage to the rock at all.
check out the Napier site link I gave, (the one that says biowash in its url) that is to company that makes removall from what I can tell.
I tried a lot of products before settling on Removall, but there are some new ones now that deserve a shot, like that Elephant Snot stuff for instance, if it turns out to be safe.
By the way, using the term witch hunt to decribe the way people feel about the vanadalism of Gunsight is a bit snide. Make no mistake, painting on the rocks like that has no defense, and the vandals should be punished as severely as possible. The incredible hubris and even narcissism it takes to do such a thing as paint the rocks is deplorable and disgusting, and a lot worse.
Maybe after you've spent some time cleaning up afer such people you will feel less kindly toward them.
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Sep 13, 2006 - 12:01pm PT
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"I'm not sure why fishing was brought up in the first place. I guess it was part of the witch hunt that is beginning to find the perpetrator. It could have been anyone."
I wasn't trying to say that a fisherman painted the dots...just that other people really do use the gully so it wasn't necessarily a climber. Really my goal in bringing up fishing was to say that anyone could have done it...not necessarily the Euros, or climbers, or fisherman, or whoever.
But fwiw, it IS easier to go fishing when you're fat and old than it is to climb a 5th class route that gets you to the top of the gunsight. Largo was asking who would need the bights on a fixed rope to get down the gunsight...and the goal of my response was to suggest that someone who wasn't in prime climbing shape might find it very useful. I didn't mean to imply that I thought all people who fish (especially those intrepid enough to head up the Gunsight to do it) are old and fat.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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the spray paint had to be marking the way down, since the dots got closer as they "led the way" to anchor stations.
Let us know!