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BASE104
climber
An Oil Field
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Sep 10, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
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I shouldn't presume to speak for Mimi, but it seems that what puts a major bug up her ass is all about clean climbing and the overall destruction of routes that have become super popular...and I can assure you, that she, like all of us, slammed in a lot of iron in the old days.
Pros: Stops destruction and makes a route *hard as hell* again to boot. Maybe if you are stymied, you should just bail..but I bet that there are few who would.
Cons: Things change on routes, and most everyone packs a bolt kit and some pins, even on the routes that have gone clean except for some of the old classics, and are willing to use them if need be.
I dunno. Before anyone could get their hands on the first cams, there was a ton of pin bashing, and I loved it. But, as I said, things change. Rock, ideas, what you will do to do a route.
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Paul
Trad climber
Muir Beach, CA
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Sep 10, 2006 - 02:54pm PT
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Blake,
I have a couple beefy older lead lines that you can use and then donate to the valley boyz if you want. I live on the other side of the Bay (Muir Beach) if you want to pick them up. I could always meet you in SF. These are good jugging ropes, no stress marks, etc. Just old, perfect for a jug fest. But, ya gotta remove them after your climb!
Lemme know. And, good luck.
Paul
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hollyclimber
Big Wall climber
Seattle, Wa
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Sep 10, 2006 - 03:35pm PT
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If I have to drop a rope and I don't have ground crew I label the rope with a tag with my name and the words "this rope is not abandoned" and the date. I have never had a problem. However, I haven't done this in a few years and stealing of gear has increased a lot at the base of El Cap.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 10, 2006 - 08:48pm PT
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mimi,
"How much is "a pin here and there" too many to a guy like you?
As I said to Ammon in an email exchange tonight, you're also probably a card-carrying conservationist in every other arena, why can't you be one in this one? I am one by the way.
Edit: Your contention is, is that the route doesn't go clean anymore. Because several other parties haven't been able to find the placement and you're supporting that idea. Where has that placement gone? Could it be that your placement on that ascent caused the change or are you blaming previous parties for your inability to solve this pro problem in the allotted time at your level of patience? This whole notion that the rock "changes" begs the question of what makes the rock change quickest. Duh? "
i dont honestly know how many pins are too many. does anyone?
how do present day clean routes go clean? is it because people pounded pins?
i do not pretend to know what is best for everyone.
i cannot assume that ammon pounded when he could have gone clean. even if it were someone i never heard of, i cannot presume to know that they could have done it clean. how many pins others pound is not my concern. why is it yours?
conservation is a funny word for any human. the only humans i know who may be true conservationists are those that give something back to the earth. those that die and contribute their carbon back to the earth are probably such people. but really, how can anyone who burns fossil fuels, contributes to greenhouse gases, takes from the earth, uses minerals, lives in houses built of dead trees, climbs with equipment made from petroleum products be a conservationist?
i doubt anyone that posts here is a true conservationist. we try. that is all we can do.
card carrying? haha
i believe in mining because i use the resources gained. i think anyone that does not believe in mining should stop using the resources gained from mining. aluminum, steel, iron, titanium, get rid of those gold nipple rings, etc.
i believe in using the resources from the forest. i live in a house constructed from wood. some folks are truly conservation minded, they might live in recycled material houses. great. but the recycled material still reqiured some resource.
i believe in petroleum products because i burn fuel when i drive my car.
anyone who does not believe in those things but continues to use the resource is fooling themselves.
i may not agree with how we get all those products, but that is a separate matter. mining, lumber, gas - it can all be gained in a way that maximizes the environment. but are we prepared for the cost? it is a vicious circle.
so i am not sure what your concept of conservatism is.
have you ever made a passive protection placement that was only possible because someone had nailed there previously? then your diatribe of nailing seems subjective, does it not?
if not, then who decides? must we climb by your standards in order to avoid your ridicule?
truly hoping you have a good day. good times to all.
hawk
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 09:08pm PT
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Hawkeye, your critical thinking skills seem to be lacking. Most of these questions are relative obviously. Mines are ugly, clearcuts are ugly, piton scars are ugly, etc. In the realm of climbing, such ugliness detracts from everyone's experience, therefore, in logging, in mining, in climbing, every effort should be made to minimize the damage while we meet our needs. Don't you agree? If not, would you like your favorite climbing area turned into a gravel pit?
Would you like to see everybody using pitons and making climbing routes as ugly as possible? Clean aid climbing is merely an attempt to stop the damage now for everyone's benefit. Decades ago, considerable peer pressure was brought to bear in the free climbing arena in order to completely stop rock scarring due to pro. Climbers generally realize that their specific indiosyncratic needs do not eclipse the needs of the climbing community. What is required is a little clarity of intent and committment to principle, both of which seem lacking in your opinion.
This is not a holier than thou attitude. You on the other hand, if such issues don't matter to you, and you like the nice warm feeling of a full diaper, once your Nihilistic crap has been taken, well good for you. These are ideas being discussed.
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WBraun
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 09:13pm PT
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Aw come on Mimi, you know you love that sweet sound of a pin when it rings. hehehe
Edit; looks like we're going to have a carry out on the four mile trail, get your ass over here, Mimi.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 09:19pm PT
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Yes, I used to love that sound. Unfortunately, I can no longer answer.
The sound of a baby angle greets me every morning when my alarm goes off and my grandfather clock features the sound of 4-inch bongs clanking meerily on the hour.
You and BASE have outed me as a closet banger. Thanks a lot. Now I'll have to go back to the sound of No. 11 hexes on the hour, which I like much less.
Edit: Wish I was there to give you a hand. Hope you finish before dark.
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 10, 2006 - 09:36pm PT
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hahaha,
perhaps in a few years, i may need those diapers you refer too.
mimi,
it is funny that you choose not to answer the questions.
i do agree with much of what you say, with regards to "doing" our best.
life is full of compromise.
aparently (if i may be presumptuous) ammon chose to place a pin, instead of retreating. i was not there, it was not my decision. i cannot presume to know that was right or wrong.
i remember in about 1980, i failed on a 5.10 route where the crux was at a bolt (one of those slab climbs where the crux was well protected). I did the only logical thing to me, i bailed. pulling through on aid did not occur to me.
i watched mortified as a another climber pulled (on the bolt) thru the crux and kept climbing. what was he doing? how could he not know that the true honor was in failing and waiting until he was up to the challenge? i was pissed and yelled at him a remark that i was later sorry for.
in this case, the climber did not hurt the rock as you (i think) assert that ammon did by placing a pin. i simply wonder who made you judge and jury? what benefit are you striving for?
to preserve the rock is a noble cause, i grant you that. but each of us who have slotted a nut into a pin scar have used the benefits of a piton. who are we to decry their use when we have gained. sandstone is especially difficult since the route can and does change over time.
i will agree with you that the idea of trying to preserve the rock seems lessened these days. ticking the route seems to be the modus operandi, fewer people try and attain a method that (to me) seems more spiritual, and lessen their impact.
who are you to judge others? are you so knowledgeable as to know how ammon (or any name for that matter) should have climbed?
i cannot find fault with your ideals, only with the presumption that you know best.
a nice evening is here, i hope you all are sensing that as well.
edit:
werner, good luck in your carry
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 09:52pm PT
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Still sitting in the middle of that rapidly cooling quandry, eh? The route had been done clean by others before Ammon and other parties came along and found it necessary to pound. That the climb had gone clean is enough to warrant the query. The clarity of old school low impact thinking is not hard to follow. We all learn from our mistakes and peer pressure provides the impetus for self-improvement. Of course, we all make mistakes.
From the tone of your posting, you clearly have found yourself judging others and are conflicted about it.
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Landgolier
climber
the flatness
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:17pm PT
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Oh fer fook's sake...
If it turns your crank to play ethics police, how about starting with people who don't hike their poo off the Captain and who have done way worse than put in one pin on one obscure sandstone A3 pitch that went clean once (and then freely admit to it as well as letting their partner post a TR and a topo documenting the fact)? You're pulling over people for doing 48 in a 45 while guys are blowing by doing 70 with a 40 in the cupholder and two more already in the tank.
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:26pm PT
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If it was up to me, I'd love to ticket all the punk ass fools out there. Hahaha!
I guess you missed the WOS posts which are a bit grander than a one-pin peeve. The attitudes and rationalizations that some climbers drum up to support their activities is really pretty interesting. Don't ya think or do you?
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Hawkeye
climber
State of Mine
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:31pm PT
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i am not in a quandry, i made a mistake about judging people mimi.
about wos,
healyje asked a fair question. should anyone climb it? is that section of rock off limits?
i have no quandaries of my own ethics. i screw up sometimes.
i have rapp bolted, how bad can it be? LOL
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Mimi
climber
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Sep 10, 2006 - 10:45pm PT
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Hawk, I think I started this snit with you over on the dirt thread. I was taking up for him. I sent his mom peony seeds from the yard afterall.
Of course someone can try to climb that section of wall. Don't be ridiculous! The fact that those greenhorns and half a ton of crap made it up in more than a month is what is laughable and interesting about that route. Clearly, despite the best efforts of the locals to desuade them, using every orifice, nothing stopped the dynamic duo from carrying out their sinister plan.
Tommy Herbert used to joke about bolting a line of modular holds all the way up El Cap with some small measure of seriousness. The creative freedom that we give each other is a wonderful thing but it also carries responsibilty.
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blake
Trad climber
Berkeley, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Sep 11, 2006 - 02:56am PT
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well, i don't know how many people are reading this far anymore (as usual, i'm amazed at the turns a thread can take), but thanks to all who have offered advice and especially those who have offered ropes. what a great community! i think we are all set for ropes, and we even have something of a plan (climb to sickle, rap to the ground, haul everything to sickle, hopefully fix the next bit to get a head start on the (for us) longish day to el cap tower.)
blake
oh, and i will post a TR, promise!
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Ammon
Big Wall climber
El Cap
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Sep 11, 2006 - 06:50am PT
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Haa haa, yeah Blake... the taco is a crazy place, huh? Have fun on The Nose, hope to see you out there. I'm in LA on a rigging job but plan on heading that way soon.
Mimi, the route went clean ONE time. Mad props to the guys who did it. AGAIN, I'm not sure what they used for ONE placement. It could have been a cam hook, I don't know. That's the only piece of gear that would make since to me.
I do not use cam hooks on sandstone because it will eventually blow out the rock.
Your focusing on this like I vandalized a route that has gone clean for years. Like Landgolier said, it's pretty obscure.
Anyway, one of the parties I've talked to since the clean ascent said they placed 8-10 pitons.
I just hope that placement doesn't get blown out by cam hooks by people trying to make a clean ascent.
Ron O had the foresight back in the day for constructive cleaning, if you have to nail.
Mimi,
Check out this link: http://www.bigwall.com/cosmictr.html
Note: Standard Nailing Rack
Like I said, go up there and report back if you could get a clean piece of gear to stick. Damn, I think I only hit the thing twice. Too funny, long day at work, night jobs suck. Cheers, ST folks. OOooaahhhh!!!
Edit: If anyone is curious of where the "damage", haa haa, was done. It's at the corner of the roof, at the top of the 7th pitch.
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