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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 11, 2014 - 03:03pm PT
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Oh sorry Wendell, I read Mexican, not Merikan, I thought you were talking about me, 'cause that IS my routine!
Peace Brother!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 03:13pm PT
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That a narcissist American generates way more psychic stress and is much more emotionally repressed than a native-born Kenyan. Self-generated stress and repressed emotionality are what really alters the neuro-chemistry of the limbic system. Brain development outside the womb during the first 26 months of life is also a strong predictor of chronic pain later on during adulthood.
Pain pathways are full-duplex. The pain always begins and ends in the brain.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 11, 2014 - 03:29pm PT
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Have you looked at the physical differences between your average Kenyan and American? Do Kenyans spend 12+ years growing up sitting in classrooms? Are their diets similar? Are Kenyans typically sedentary and overweight?
Humor me and tell me about these 100 Americans without back pain. And, just for kicks, what is your expertise in back pain?
God you sound dense.
Psychic? Really?
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 11, 2014 - 03:44pm PT
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This is getting WAY off topic. With that.....same Bruce Morris as Wings of Steel? If my memory serves me well, a pioneering route with critcism from those that had NOT been there, later to be confirmed as a hair ball, nut sucking reputable route. I don't have the extensive research as Mr. Morris, BUT all pain does start and end in the brain. It is the central nerve that ALL signals start and end in.....so maybe like Wings, in 20 years the critics will be silenced. I hope the plantar fascia/ heel pain gets resolved whether it's in the foot or the head.
Peace
Edit:.... Bruce I always do like to LEARN from your perspectives. You think outside the box and that usually is a way to generate and stimulate new ideas and ways to think!
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 03:51pm PT
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As senior member and moderator of the TMS Wiki Forum, I've interacted with and observed hundreds of patients with lower-back pain, fibromyalgia, shoulder pain, neck pain, foot pain and associated symptoms like tension headaches and skin conditions. The one thing you can say about all of the structural causes behind the development of pain syndromes is that they function as psychological triggers that activate underlying repressed emotions. The aches and pains function as distractions from emotions that people would rather stay buried in the unconscious. The aches and pains are acceptable and treatable as structural problems by the medical establishment. Most people would not like to let nasty emotions like grief and rage out into the light of day. Instead, they have a bad back like Uncle Toby's war wound in Tristram Shandy. Another thing I've notice in all of these back pain patients is that their symptoms usually developed about 3 to 6 months after a Holmes-Rahe event like loss of income, death of a parent, divorce, losing their job etc. etc. etc. Very much like Clancy Mckenzie classic "two trauma process" and the onset of PTSD symptoms. Dr Mckenzie goes even further than that and bluntly states that the onset of schizophrenia follows this same pattern.
I think Dr Howard Schubiner gives a much better explanation how this works than I could:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
No connection whatsoever with Wings of Steel, Ron! First 9 pitches of the Hall of Mirrors, yes. Escape from Freedom on Watkins, yes. Golden Dawn on Watkins, yes. Cryin' Time Again on Lembert, yes. You're right though: whenever you do something new or different, people will throw mud at you.
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jgill
Boulder climber
Colorado
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Jul 11, 2014 - 04:02pm PT
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The aches and pains function as distractions from emotions that people would rather stay buried in the unconscious (BM)
Oh, boy . . . I'm speechless.
MD? DC?
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ron gomez
Trad climber
fallbrook,ca
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Jul 11, 2014 - 04:12pm PT
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My mistake, I meant Hall! I even had a long discussion with Jonny thanking him for confirming HOM as a legit route in his article ions ago! Damn the old brain is no good anymore. I was in the Valley when you guys were putting that up and bagged on my friends who wanted to jack yer cars parked along the road in Curry on our way out to the Apron. Glad I did, stopped them from being ass's at least that time.
Peace
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 04:13pm PT
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But if you tear your biceps muscle off the bone in your arm, it's going to hurt like heck, JGill, no doubt about that! I'm not talking about blunt force trauma and tendon tears and broken bones. That's a whole different kettle of fish, as Oliver Hardy once put it. A fractured calcaneus is a fractured calcaneus. That's the kind of stuff that traditional structural medicine is set up to deal with.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Jul 11, 2014 - 04:42pm PT
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Tgt has it!!
And the Merikan sits on his ass at a desk all day, then goes home and slouches on the couch in front of the boob tube with beer and chips in hand.
As a t12-l4 fusion surgery patient as a result of compression fracture to l2, i feel i have a place to comment here.
I agree with some of bruce points too. Stress is a large factor which contributes to tight muscles.
The majority of my back pain however is triggered by sitting. Editing photos for long periods, driving, flying. I don't sit on the couch anymore. I prefer to lay down.
Stretching helps, so does hot cold therapy and acupuncture. Working out helps too. Helps support my back with strong core muscles. Walking is a huge benefit. When i was staying at camp 4 this time after Norwegian left me i was walking everywhere for a week and my back felt better with each mile.
Conclusion? North Americans do way too much sitting! And not enough walking...
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okie
Trad climber
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Jul 11, 2014 - 05:00pm PT
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What Locker said. FiveFingers...essentially barefoot running. That book came out a few years back about the Tarahumara and the minimalist movement was on. I think it's funny how the shoe companies ran with it and sold us on high- priced flippy-floppies. Less engineering involved, for sure. Price didn't seem to go down, either.
I got the fascistitus too but it was cause I liked jogging up peaks. Nowadays I keep my heels down on the climbs.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 11, 2014 - 05:10pm PT
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The majority of my back pain however is triggered by sitting. Editing photos for long periods, driving, flying. I don't sit on the couch anymore. I prefer to lay down.
Sitting is a pretty benign activity with respect to the back. Why does it hurt when you sit? Programming. Some people hurt when they walk. Some when they lay down. Some hurt when they walk uphill, but not downhill. Some hurt when they walk downhill, but not uphill. This sort of programming occurs pretty early on during the initial period when pain first occurs and becomes a conditioned response that can last for years and years or disappear overnight. No logic to it. Simple classical behavioral conditioning. Your vertebrae healed years and years ago. The largest bone in the body, the femur, will heal (unless there are complications) within 6 to 8 weeks. The problem is that our behaviors are eminently programmable, especially pain symptoms. However, there are techniques for reprogramming pain behaviors that include EMDR and ISTP that actually have achieved very good results with pain patients. The trouble is a lot of this stuff is cutting edge and it's difficult to find practitioners outside major metropolitan areas on the West and East Coasts of the USA and in the UK. Dr Howard Schubiner in Ohio and Alan Gordon at USC are two of the best. You might want to check out Schubiner's Unlearn Your Pain program.
I might mention that the pain from an old injury that won't go away in a couple of months is a classic mind-body trigger mechanism that I've seen in many, many pain patients. I fractured my heal in 1990. Why does the pain suddenly come back at different unrelated times? Probably because emotions and memory are both moderated through the amygdala:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amygdala
Very ancient area of the brain also implicated in the flight-fright-freeze mammalian survival response. Neuroscience is where the answers to this kind of behavioral programming are going to come from eventually, not from the folks with the tin hats.
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Flip Flop
Trad climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 11, 2014 - 05:44pm PT
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Big Mike,
Word about sitting. Despite what foilhat thinks, sitting shortens your Illiopsoas, and flattens your natural lumbar arch. Maybe BM has a psycho-magnet to rewire your brain, but if he doesn't I agree with you that avoiding sitting on couches is really helpful.
Wait..I'm having a recovered memory of when I was abducted by aliens that looked like couches and they probed my BM. I'm going to visit Dr. Foilhat ( in video) for some journaling and reprogramming. ( I scoped his treatments and they are the exact treatments prescribed by culty new age snake oil salesmen. Literally his treatments are reading his books, writing exercises and reprogramming).
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DanaB
climber
CT
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Jul 11, 2014 - 07:27pm PT
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I had a condition similar to PF a couple of years ago. I know it's sinful to recommend medication on this thread, but I took one tiny Meloxicam tablet a day for about a week and that took care of it.
And as a non-believer ye shall be cast out. No mercy.
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Da_Dweeb
climber
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Jul 13, 2014 - 03:34pm PT
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I've got it bad in my left heel. I've never had it before and it's pretty painful. Went for a 6 mile run yesterday and had to walk (limp) the last two miles. Anyone have good advise on how to get rid of this? I already miss running.
Mike - I got this from distance running as well, and it sucks.
It takes some time to go away, so you may want to pick up another form of exercise until it does. As for how to get rid of it, the single most important factor for me was buying a night splint for ~$20 and wearing it nightly until the pain was gone.
http://www.amazon.com/Medium-Cronin-PLANTAR-FASCITIS-SPLINT/dp/B001B5JVIA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1405290694&sr=8-1&keywords=night+splint
Give this a shot, you'll be running again, but some time will need to pass first. =(
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aspendougy
Trad climber
Los Angeles, CA
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Jul 13, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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I have a mild case, and found that balancing on that foot and doing toe raises helps. Also, I found that PF is associated with a very sore "trigger point" in the calf.
My experience has been that I am prone to that same thing in a few other areas, such as the shoulder and elbow, and the same conditions are present, a sore trigger point, and a resultant pain in an adjacent area.
I am not sure how it all fits together, but based on limited experience, it is more of a nerve thing as opposed to actual tissue damage in the heel.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Jul 13, 2014 - 07:08pm PT
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Gone into the mountains for a few days, and look what happens!
While I don't necessarily agree with everything, Bruce has said a lot about the lower back that is fully supported in the medical literature, especially the notations about MRI's.
A friend and colleague was the Chief of Rehab at UCLA for many years, and was hired by the State of Nevada to do a mandatory review of all proposed work comp back surgery, before it could be done. This was done because in NV, the rate of such surgeries was TWENTY times the rate in Ca. He told me of the enormous number of proposed surgeries that he stopped, because there were NO INDICATIONS for doing them.
You got the sense that taxidermists were doing these surgeries! :)
While cute, the mention of psychics is not the logical direction. Psychologists probably are. (BTW, NOT psychiatric DRUGS, for the most part)
If you have any doubt about the psychological aspect of various pain disorders, here is a most interesting note about one of the most difficult to treat pain disorders, Phantom Limb Syndrome.
http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2009/05/john-colapinto-ramachandrans-mirror-trick.html
In his office in Mandler Hall, Ramachandran positioned a twenty-inch-by-twenty-inch drugstore mirror upright, and perpendicular to the man’s body, and told him to place his intact right arm on one side of the mirror and his stump on the other.
He told the man to arrange the mirror so that the reflection created the illusion that his intact arm was the continuation of the amputated one. Then Ramachandran asked the man to move his right and left arms simultaneously, in synchronous motions—like a conductor—while keeping his eyes on the reflection of his intact arm.
“Oh, my God!” the man began to shout. “Oh, my God, Doctor, this is unbelievable.”
For the first time in ten years, the patient could feel his phantom limb “moving,” and the cramping pain was instantly relieved.
After the man had used the mirror therapy ten minutes a day for a month, his phantom limb shrank—”the first example in medical history,” Ramachandran later wrote, “of a successful ‘amputation’ of a phantom limb.
Dr. V.S. Ramachandran, called the "Marco Polo of neuroscience" by Richard Dawkins, is the author of several books on the brain, including Phantoms in the Brain: Probing Mysteries of the Human Mind and A Brief Tour of Human Consciousness: From Impostor Poodles to Purple Numbers. He gave the 2003 BBC Reith Lectures and has published more than 180 papers in scientific journals including Nature and Science.
But you wonder why anyone would conduct research in the arena, when they are then accused of being in favor of "psychic healing"........
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Jul 13, 2014 - 07:30pm PT
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I haven't read this entire thread yet. Perhaps I'm repeating something already said.
Early on someone said Running in five fingers is a terrible idea Recently Vibram agreed to settle a lawsuit to refund anyone who bought a pair since March 21, 2009. Vibram had been claiming they were beneficial to your feet. However they had zero, nada, zilch research to support that claim.
I think this is a poorly written article but you can get the basic facts.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2014/05/08/say-it-aint-so-vibram-say-it-aint-so/
Also someone mentioned Morton's Neuroma.
I don't know if there was a reply but there should be no trouble discerning the difference with Plantar Fascitis: MN is between the metatarsals, towards the front of your foot. The pain is highly localized and may be debilitating. Sometimes surgery is the only relief. And they can come back.
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Bruce Morris
Social climber
Belmont, California
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Jul 13, 2014 - 10:50pm PT
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There are currently no randomized peer-reviewed double blind scientific studies to indicate that sitting in a chair is "bad for the back".
Nor are there any randomized peer-reviewed double blind scientific studies to indicate that sleeping on a soft mattress is "bad for the back".
These are items of medical mythology perpetuated by rumor, anecdote and innuendo. All utter nonsense that gives further evidence to the fact that pain syndrones are highly conditioned and programmed.
Some pain patients hurt when they sit but not when they stand up. Some hurt when they stand up, but not when they sit. Some typical pain patterns are diurnal: A back patient wakes up with no pain, and then it increases throughout the day and goes down in the evening and stops altogether at night. Some other patients have no back pain at all during the day, but wake up at exactly the same time each evening, say at 3 a.m., in excruciating pain and have to take a Codeine. All these patterns are well documented in the literature and suggest classical conditioning and programming is at work here.
However, here is a gentleman who does know a heck of a lot about chronic pain and its causes:
[Click to View YouTube Video]
You'll notice about half-way through, Dr Basbaum does describe how chronic pain is linked to the emotional memory centers in the brain. Very interesting indeed if you listen to his lecture in conjunction what Dr Schubiner says above about the origins of chronic pain. But what does Dr Basbaum really know if he believes rock climbing in a gym is excruciatingly painful? Just goes to show how much our perceptions are conditioned by assumptions and personal beliefs.
If anyone is really interested in how PPD (psycho-physiological disorders) have changed and mutated over the last two hundred years of Western civilization since the industrial revolution, you might want to delve into this rather challenging book:
http://www.amazon.com/From-Paralysis-Fatigue-History-Psychosomatic/dp/0029286670
Be warned: Only a select few can make it through this tome.
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dindolino32
climber
san francisco
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Jul 14, 2014 - 01:16pm PT
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I work with people with PF daily. Tight heel cords, calf and hamstrings definitely are culprits, BUT I see A LOT of people that wear those stupid barefoot shoes. Get some better footwear, supportive insoles (not the crappy foam ones), and stretch. Warm up your feet before you hop out of bed with massage and curling then extending your toes. Your plantar fascia is just a big tendon, and you have tendonitis. So treat it like tennis elbow and warm up before your play.
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