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snowhazed
Trad climber
Oaksterdam, CA
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who has time to retro-bolt climbs anyways? I've got way too much actual climbing to get done as it is....
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bhilden
Trad climber
Mountain View, CA/Boulder, CO
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What Melissa said:
1969: You (climber) don't climb hard enough. Work harder.
Today: You (FAist) didn't prepare a route for me that suits my abilities. You're selfish, and you suck.
When I lived in the Valley, if we couldn't do a route we just trained harder or aspired one day to be good enough to do it. It was our limitations which kept us from succeeding. When my partner and I got better we tried to climb every known route on Glacier Point Apron. We came pretty darn close to achieving that goal.
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Lollie
Social climber
I'm Lolli.
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It's a matter of hieararchy.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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In the end, the best thing that can happen to the FA person(s) is that their route will become a beloved classic that people climb. I would wager that Ron is very proud to have put up some of his routes that are now practically required climbing and deserve a visit to Zion just for his work.
Jeff Jackson wrote a hilarious essay on this in Rock & Ice's Tuesday Night Bouldering column.
The TNB column came about from the office all taking off early on Tuesdays and going bouldering. Some story or other would pop up and one of the writers would tell a story.
I'm signed up for it, and it comes to my email inbox every Wednesday or so.
Here is JJ's thoughts on doing FA's. It is pretty tongue in cheek, so don't go haywire over it...
http://www.rockandice.com/lates-news/tnb-5-ways-to-make-people-love-your-routes
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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Final note - Despite all discussion, I can't remember ever actively wanting any particular climb retrobolted. There's been plenty for me to do.
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nature
climber
Boulder, CO
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Yes
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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I HATE the constant reference to a "5.12" climber putting up runout 5.9.
Paul Ross I doubt was ever a 5.12 climber, and at your age Jim he was putting up run the hell out 5.9's at the swell. (and he also did Fissure Brown in flip flops when you were in diapers).
The majority of climbers have weaker minds than those who climbed 20+ years ago. They are certainly stronger, but not tough enough to live without Soy Chai Lattes.
Other ascents should try to emulate the first ascent or climb in a better style.
do better, cleaner, no beta ascents.
I challenge any 5.9 leader who maxes at 5.9 to try the opening pitches of Piece de Resistance on Moro Rock in Sequioa/Kings Canyon Nat'l Park. That is basically a death sentence, because you make little lunges from crumbling chicken heads and you just can't back off after you commit unless you are way better than a 5.9 climber. I had some (not much) experience on 5.10, don't usually shirk away from run-outs, and hopped on this route with no beta or no knowledge of the first ascent party.
I think it's safe to say E.C. Joe can climb much harder than 5.9. It's also safe to say I could have died or been horribly mutilated the day I tried it. I was very happy to survive leading the first 2-3 pitches, after which we bailed. That was my big lesson in counting the number of bolts per pitch on the topo, and being familiar with the first ascent parties.
So in the final analysis, I support the preservation of these adventures, but there could be a way to make it more clear to idiot newbies what are "beware" routes and what are casual routes. I used to look at topos and see 3-4 little x's, pretty close together on that paper, and didn't connect that to the reality of those being bolts spread on a 160 or 200 foot pitch.
I guess I just stated one reason for Supertopo guidebooks to exist :)
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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The right to maintain the protection the first ascent party placed.
The right to put up first ascents and experience not feeling so subsequent.
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NutAgain!
Trad climber
South Pasadena, CA
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Yeah it's obvious that someone livin' the life will be a more capable climber than someone doing it a few days a month. But in theory, at least as an ideal to aim for, a 5.9 climb should be 5.9 whether it is labeled as such by a weekend warrior or a full-time valley resident.
When a number is measured through a lens, you either normalize it with knowledge of the lens characteristics (which is what Supertopo guides try to do), or you specify what lens was used and let others try to figure it out (which is the old fashioned guidebook way). Guess that's one important reason to preserve info about the FA parties, and to have folklore passed down to know more about these characters that assigned numbers to these routes.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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a lot of people who did runout, ground-up FAs were out there climbing like 100 to 200 days a year!
a typical guy who spends 3-4 days a month climbing may very well shite his pants on their routes, and wonder why he did
to me it's obvious why he shitt his pants
That is some proud shite though.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Jul 9, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
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We are getting ad hominen responses from sport climbers from New Jersey with reading comprehension short comings....this thread has legs!
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SeanH
Trad climber
SLC
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said the dude from Philly...might as well be the Jers :P
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WyoRockMan
climber
Flank of the Big Horns
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Jul 10, 2014 - 11:59am PT
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Yes they do have rights. The right to give it a go. The right to bail. The right to send. or the right to simply walk away.
(not really "rights" but....)
I'm looking forward to exercising my right to scare the willies out of my self in South Dakota starting tomorrow.
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Mike Friedrichs
Sport climber
City of Salt
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Jul 10, 2014 - 12:50pm PT
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Years ago I did a route in Lone Peak Cirque in the Wasatch that had a 100 foot runout on huecos. The route is a 5.10 route but if I recall that pitch was even easier, probably around 5.9. I knew the pitch was well below my ability and my experience soloing and doing hard climbs made it casual for me. I had no anxiety doing the route.
But sooner or later someone is going to get hurt. It may take years or even decades but it will happen. Maybe a fierce thunderstorm will come through. Or perhaps there will be ice on the route. Maybe some novice climber will just get in over their head and take the big fall. Then someone is going to have to go up there, scrape up the remains and tell someone's mother what happened.
So I question if it is really worth it be able to thump our chests and proudly proclaim that in our day if we couldn't lead it we polished our skill, thump our chests some more and spray some more about how tough we were and how kids these days just aren't up to it. Somehow I don't think it would matter to the mother who gets the bad news.
I doubt that the route had a big runout because the first ascentionists were trying to make a statement. More likely, they just knew it would be easier and quicker to finish the pitch than it would be to hang out and try to drill a bolt on steep terrain (there is on bolt on the pitch, just after the crux so they did have a bolt kit).
It's my opinion that a couple of bolts added to that pitch would still make it spicy and exciting for a climber at that level but would probably save someone's life and to me that's worth it.
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