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dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
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Aug 25, 2006 - 03:29pm PT
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How long was the sling on the cam the pulled?
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JuanDeFuca
Big Wall climber
Stoney Point
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Aug 25, 2006 - 04:46pm PT
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I remember when I was on pitch 97 of the new route on Mt. Thor. For no reason a indigo alien just blew out for no damn reason. Luckily the girls on the portaharem were ready for a fall.
Juan
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 27, 2006 - 12:43am PT
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funny Juan
uhhmmm...
I reread my last statement in context with this thread and realized it is totaly out of place here because no one in this thread places any blame on anyone so far. And this was obviously not Mahsyo's intent.
I was just thinking about different liability issues at the time and feeling bitter. my apologies!
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golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
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Aug 28, 2006 - 01:32pm PT
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hope the climber is alright.
my buddie pulled out two WC Friends in the 80's out of perfect cam placements in granite and decked. I suspect that there were small surface crystals that gave way, then the cam never reset itself. Two. And this guy has only free climbed the diamond about 25 times,so I dont think it was inexperience.
Cams rip sometimes, inexpicably. Dont think this is a gear failure unless there is something found wrong with the cam.
It does suck though...
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Aug 28, 2006 - 02:34pm PT
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I don't know Hans, but am glad to hear his injuries are minor.
"Bombproof" terminology notwithstanding, there is no such thing as a 100% reliable piece of gear. Every placement has a certain, unfortunately unknown, probability of failure---a probability we hope is very small if the gear is "well-placed." With cams and the enormous number of variables involved in their holding effectively, I believe that the probability of failure is small but not as small as we'd really like. But we don't know, except that the combined experience of a lot of climbers indicates that "good" gear holds most of the time.
Viewing the failure of a "well-placed" smallish cam as some kind of equipment malfunction is wrong. A certain number of such cams have failed in the past and will continue to fail in the future. The small probability of failure means many, perhaps most people will never have an unfortunate experience. We may come to think of ourselves as "skilled" and "experienced" when in reality we just haven't been unlucky. Yet.
In the face of uncertainty, one can choose to take one's chances. Plenty of climbers do this, most get away with it, and in many cases there is no other choice. The only other course is redundancy, which is not always practical. But if hard moves are in the offing, gear failure would be catastrophic, and additional placements are possible, then I think doubling up, regardless of how "bombproof" a single placement appears, needs to be promoted as a matter of basic protection strategy.
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DHike
climber
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Aug 29, 2006 - 03:23am PT
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Jim B, thanks for posting up, especially the link to the 'Attaway' paper on fall forces. That was an incredibly eye opening read about what we are trusting to catch us should we fail. (Yikes, and did I recently find out!) Should be recommended reading material other than the latest 'Hot Flashes'.
Glad to report the 'Tonemeister' is well and upbeat as ever, 'chust a little gurly scratch'. Could've been a heck of a lot worse.
Peter, as always, thanks. See you at the 'office'
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 29, 2006 - 04:30pm PT
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Hi Peter,
sounds like you may be on point with a micro-surface failure. It could be compounded by a sticky cam, or perhaps a lateral flick of the rope.
It could even be a rare combo of the three.
I've noticed an over-reliance on SLCDs by a generation of climbers who never climbed without them. Personally I PREFER nuts to cams when the placements are good (lighter and cheaper too).
Further, reliance on gear without a backup is a strong risk factor by itself.
(Now I get to play curmudgeon;) I remember back in the day when I started climbing the common wisdom was to locate your belay where you could hammer pitons INTO SEPARATE CRACKS!
These days climbing on sandstone I just ASSUME that the crack's interior surface will have grit that could act like micro-bearings so I try to make certain my gear is well seated.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Aug 29, 2006 - 05:19pm PT
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Thanks to all for the great info. Liked the geology, and the force analysis.
Once again, did not mean to mislead with the thread title. Should have read:
"Aliens' early withdrawal surprise to earthbound climber and friends".
Stronger cam models and secondary back up placement are clearly indicated.
I will pass on all kind thoughts to Hans,
Peter
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john tecklin
climber
Nevada City, CA
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I pulled a yellow alien (which I thought was a perfect placement) at the crux of serenity crack. Luckily my next piece held, I fell about 40 feet. I went up again, placed it again (this time with closer backup) and it happened again! This piece appears completely normal. I'm feeling a little queasy. Only thing I've been able to figure out is that it may have rotated as I fell, or as I stepped past it, since it was a fairly shallow placement. Hearing that this has happened to others is causing me to reevalute whether I rely on this gear. So far I've been putting those little cams in deeper and backing up when I can.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Yellow alien? Where? I got a blue one in....
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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john tecklin wrote:
> I pulled a yellow alien (which I thought was a perfect placement) at the crux of serenity crack. Luckily my next piece held, I fell about 40 feet. I went up again, placed it again (this time with closer backup) and it happened again! This piece appears completely normal. I'm feeling a little queasy. Only thing I've been able to figure out is that it may have rotated as I fell, or as I stepped past it, since it was a fairly shallow placement. Hearing that this has happened to others is causing me to reevalute whether I rely on this gear. So far I've been putting those little cams in deeper and backing up when I can.
I have seen a similar problem with a yellow Alien at the crux of Serenity. Last fall, a person was leading it and I was waiting up top to rappel. She placed a yellow Alien below the crux, tested it by jerking down on it, and it came out. Tried a second time with the same result. She styled a rest at that delicate position and put in some different gear.
My conclusion is that the crack is "not sufficiently parallel" at that spot to be a good place for the yellow Alien. It is hard to look in and inspect the individual cams there, since you are to the side and it's not easy to hold on. Clearly some of them are not contacting the rock or are "tipped out" and not ready to hold much. It is at the transition from the finger crack to discrete pin scars there, so the irregularity of the crack should not be too surprising. I recall using something like #3 or #4 Rocks there in the past.
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hobo
climber
PDX
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Hmmm,in that spot I remember a blue TCU. While your standing on the knob type thing? Seemed bomber. Maybe not?
Alex
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