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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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There is, after all, also historical/traditional precedent in this country for human beings owning other human beings based on their race :)
That was settled a while ago. And it wasn't based solely on race, it's just that the Arab slave-traders were selling only one color....
Think about it.
EDIT:
and let's say the town council is made up of mostly Muslims.....ok?
anyone who supports the Court's decision have a problem with letting them read from the Quran and pray to Muhammed?
that would be just fine, the Court did not say WHAT religion is ok did they?
Yep! As long it doesn't violate other laws, sure.
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clinker
Trad climber
Santa Cruz, California
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Mtnyoung, What if there was a nonspecific, sounding off the void inquiry for the greater good(just in-case of the existence a higher power) What could it hurt?
A mutual acknowledgment as individual participants in a consortium, that all present are equal and though some may wish the other dead, respectfully refrain from violence until off premises.
Instead of a prayer.
The Pledge of Existence.
Would that be acceptable?
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Aha, now we're joined by a fundamentalist cynic :)
Yup, dat's me, what in pray tell is going round here anyway?
All five of the opinion writers are Catholic, three of the dissenters were Jewish...
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 12:44am PT
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and let's say the town council is made up of mostly Muslims.....ok?
anyone who supports the Court's decision have a problem with letting them read from the Quran and pray to Muhammed?
that would be just fine, the Court did not say WHAT religion is ok did they?
And that seems to be part of the court's reasoning - any denomination would be allowed to do its "prayer."
And I respect Blue for agreeing that a muslim prayer would be OK if, (as the court has ruled) a Christian prayer was too.
But does it ever really work out that way? Seriously?
Although a lot of law is, of necessity, based on theory, there's got to be an acknowledgment too of what really happens.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 12:49am PT
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Mtnyoung, What if there was a nonspecific, sounding off the void inquiry for the greater good(just in-case of the existence a higher power) What could it hurt?
A mutual acknowledgment as individual participants in a consortium, that all present are equal and though some may wish the other dead, respectfully refrain from violence until off premises.
Instead of a prayer.
The Pledge of Existence.
Would that be acceptable?
If I understand what you're saying, something like a sports version of the "winning isn't everything, let's all be fair and respectful" pre-game lecture would be fine. That's not religion.
And, if I don't understand what you're saying, you can take it out on me Wednesday by giving me penalty slack ;)
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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In this issue, the public declaration of faith is a political statement and by its very utterance, is a dismissal of non-believers.
This evangelicalism played in the public sphere.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Topic Author's Reply - May 6, 2014 - 01:11am PT
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Oh, now here's real gem of an American:
Speaking at the Pastor for Life Luncheon, which was sponsored by Pro-Life Mississippi, Chief Justice Roy Moore of the Alabama Supreme Court declared that the First Amendment only applies to Christians because "Buddha didn't create us, Mohammed didn't create us, it was the God of the Holy Scriptures" who created us.
Seriously, does our constitution allow guys like this to reproduce? If so, it shouldn't.
Sometimes I think that whoever said the North won the American Civil War was a nutjob. The North won? Last time I checked the South was still part of the U.S.A.
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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If you don't agree with the prayer at the council meeting, elect different council members.
You can't stop Christians from saying prayers any more than you can stop Sikhs from wearing turbans. You may not like hearing prayers, but there are some who don't like seeing turbans. You just have to live with it.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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You can't stop Christians from saying prayers any more than you can stop Sikhs from wearing turbans. You may not like hearing prayers, but there are some who don't like seeing turbans. You just have to live with it.
As elected officials these individuals no longer are individuals but must take into account all those that they represent. When conducting government business should their individual rights be extended to the public arena?
I don't think so.
"Please be quiet while we pray, and we will take note of those who choose not to... as they are different"
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Chaz
Trad climber
greater Boss Angeles area
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They don't give up their First Amendment right to freely exercise their religion just because they got elected to public office.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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They don't give up their right to freely exercise their religion just because they were elected to public office.
While serving in that capacity at a public meeting they should refrain from such exclusionary invocations. Of course 5 believers with their own religious/political opinion decided that we are a Christian nation and that non-believers are best to hush up while the powers of the Almighty are called in to keep public meetings on track...
... "We pray that we are forgiven for screwing up again and again."
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thebravecowboy
climber
in the face of the fury of the funk
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pop-quiz: can anyone name for me the first time that the phrase or idea of a "free-speech zone" was first applied to them, and/or what time period/leader we might best attribute it to?
I know that my first experience with a "free speech zone/non-free-speech zone" came in late 2003 during a W rally in a midwestern town near a river called Kalamazoo.
Skulls should have been cracked if I really bought that whole Bill or Rights and/or its Amendments, huh? Shoulda stood up and argued, huh? Guess it's my theoretical kid's problem, not mine, right?
I am biting my tongue on the impulse to tease gun-folk about the utter non-utility of a firearm in these settings, but, well, dammit we need you gun-nutz to keep the hoi-polloi in place and not out there eating our young outright....
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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He is about the only one I ever trust to rule on anything based on the facts and merits of the law involved.
Kennedy's rulings supporting the more liberal justices are primarily on cases that are less consequential and safe for him to do so...
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Lorenzo
Trad climber
Oregon
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So... How is judge Kagan's hypothetical about a town meeting relevant to the first amendment?
The first amendment doesn't say anything about what you can or can't do in a town meeting.
The constitutional literalist MUST have noted the first word in the amendment.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Being politically expedient is not usually considered clear, well reasoned legal thinking.
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dirtbag
climber
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The first amendment doesn't say anything about what you can or can't do in a town meeting.
The constitutional literalist MUST have noted the first word in the amendment.
It is well established that first amendment protections aren't limited to Congressional actions. Most amendments apply to the states.
By your reasoning, city councils could limit speech, assembly, or religion, because they would not be congressional actions. Care to go there?
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dirtbag
climber
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If you don't agree with the prayer at the council meeting, elect different council members.
You can't stop Christians from saying prayers any more than you can stop Sikhs from wearing turbans. You may not like hearing prayers, but there are some who don't like seeing turbans. You just have to live with it.
Lame.
No one is proposing that Christian city council members or Christian citizens refrain from practicing in their private lives.
What they are doing is advocating for a Christian government. In the public sphere.
Does the establishment clause not mean anything, anymore?
Kennedy and the other four dunces blew this one--again.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Blind-sided.
I fail to see the wisdom of this argument.
Hope it isn't contagious.
"By inviting ministers to serve as chaplain for the month, ...the town is acknowledging the central place that religion and religious institutions hold in the lives of those present,"
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From 1999 to 2007, all the ministers who delivered the opening prayers were Christians. And as the court noted, many of the prayers invoked Jesus Christ.
Town supervisor Relic:
He said the prayer practice would continue and that anyone who wanted to come and offer a prayer could do so and would be accommodated, depending on the board’s schedule.
Back to separate but equal. Shades of Plessy v. Ferguson.
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survival
Big Wall climber
Terrapin Station
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I'm sure blue won't mind if a few Muslims fire up with some prayers at a city council meeting.
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zBrown
Ice climber
Brujo de la Playa
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Denying that this country was founded on Godly, Christian principles is akin to saying El Cap isn't steep.
Why did the framers of the consitution then not specify this in the First Amendment? Conspicuous by absence is the word Christian anywhere in the text.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Although the opportunity was available, I cannot find any mention of any of the constitutional convention meetings opening or closing with a prayer to or mentioning Jesus. Maybe someone else can.
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