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Greg Barnes
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 03:59pm PT
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Yep, pretty much always do it (unless the rope is running where you can't), why not?
Redundancy is good.
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julton
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 04:07pm PT
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Sure but if you're rapping then you never go back on belay so you've negated the OP's original issue.
I think what happens sometimes is there is miscommunication about whether the leader will rappel or lower. That's what happened with my two friends, despite decades of climbing together, despite discussing the situation before the leader started up.
"Brotherhood of the Rope" might have looked nice on his tombstone.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 25, 2014 - 04:17pm PT
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Trust but verify
verify twice
Then if there's any question in my mind about my belayer (she could be completely trustworthy but out of sight and possibly out of hearing, could have started to snow, etc) I backup with a proper self belay. I always carry the means to self belay: a short sling, a locking 'biner and a loop of 5mm nylon kernmantle (NOT kevlar, spectra, etc) cord. I usually use an auto block bend.
No, I don't trust lowering any of my weight with just my hands on the belay rope. That's really sketchy if you already think the belay's not right.
Rappelling is not always an option.
It's true that most "gym climbers" haven't learned some of these basic tricks. If your gym has a good self rescue class, take it.
The classic message exchange is the only thing I use. Keeping it similar to the on belay exchange reduces confusion.
On Belay????
Belay On!!!!!
Lower me!
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2014 - 06:43pm PT
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My buddy is at the anchors, he is the last to climb this route and needs to do the chain trick. He at first thinks he will rap and has his belayer take him off. In the middle of it all he thinks to himself I should be more trusting. I need to work on that. So when he is done feeding the chains he yells down On belay? He thinks he is back on belay for some reason. He is holding on to the anchor but not feeling any tension in the rope. He chides himself for being afraid and not trusting his partner (who is Not there), and he lets go. Normally you fall a foot or so, not this time. He takes a couple steps and has fallen almost 50'. He sees the other side of the rope going up. He reaches out and tries to grab it. The rope wraps around his hand, and at the same time he falls sideways. The first 15' of this route is steep then goes slabby. His body pinches the rope as he hits the bottom of the slab on his side. This combined with the rope around his hand slows him down. He hits the ground hard and bounces up a foot. I think he hurt his foot. But what I remember the most is the snakelike rope burns all around his hand and arm.
Great discussion. Thanks for your consideration. I think if you even read this you will be safer. Even if you posted that you won't or don't do this you probably have a system that is dialed for you and now you are on the look out for any crazy situation.
Single pitch climbs where I will be lowered I'm pretty sure I do this all the time.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Typewriters and Ledges
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Apr 25, 2014 - 07:52pm PT
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My buddy is at the anchors, he is the last to climb this route and needs to do the chain trick. He at first thinks he will rap and has his belayer take him off. In the middle of it all he thinks to himself I should be more trusting. I need to work on that. So when he is done feeding the chains he yells down On belay? He thinks he is back on belay for some reason. He is holding on to the anchor but not feeling any tension in the rope. He chides himself for being afraid and not trusting his partner (who is Not there), and he lets go.
I still don't see why the climber in your example above couldn't have stayed clipped to the anchors instead of the suggested holding the rope with your free hand technique to solve the issue?
Doesn't seem like a case of trusting the belayer and more like a case of needing to communicate and receive confirmation in any situation where the plan changes mid route.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 08:03pm PT
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I always hold the belayers side of the rope when lowering. As soon as I see tension I SLOWLY lower myself the few more inches until I'm sure the belayer has me. It could be a partner I've climber with for years or a stranger I met that day. It has nothing to do with trust and everything to do with covering my own ass. I also always have a knot in the belay side of the rope if sport climbing. Again covering my own ass. Both things have saved me from my own ass ending up in the hospital.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 25, 2014 - 08:24pm PT
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Wes... did that happen to your friend?
The root cause: you friend calling "off belay"
off belay = I am going to rap, you are done with your duty.
And Ruppell ..... sometimes the "down rope" is not right next to the up rope, Im thinking overhanging celings, like "looney Binge" in the ORG....
you would need to trust your belayer and lower OR rap.
And I have thought about this all day..... I can not think of a senaro where you would need to go off belay while your leading....
Wes thank you for getting us to think about safety.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2014 - 08:28pm PT
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I totally agree with you on this Kevin.
I have no idea what was going on with my friends or the guy in the podcast. All I know is that all three thought they were on belay. All three disconnected themselves from the anchor because they really thought they were on belay and that was the next step to being lowered. They all did everything that they thought they could to be safe. They all almost died. They all could've just held(saved) themselves by holding the other side of the rope.
I also know there are many other ways to get through this safely. Many are posted above. Good thought provoking discussion thanks again.
Wes
PS On a wildly steep sport route, I lower. That way the rope is still through the draws in case someone wants to TR. You can always just pull and relead. Also to clean said route is a bit easier when being lowered. I think rapping in this situation is not the way to go. YMMV.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 08:36pm PT
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guyman
For sure in that scenario you just lower out. I can't think of a reason to go off belay when single pitching either. Even if you have to re-thread chains. It only takes 30 seconds to clip in, untie, thread, then re-tie and call take.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 25, 2014 - 08:49pm PT
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Guy- Yup my good friend almost died that way. I can't remember who was belaying. I was on the ground getting ready to climb the next rig over when I hear the rope whipping up from the pile behind me. Before I identify the sound, he hits the ground 5' behind me.
IDK what happened, but I was listening to that podcast and it hit me hard. This guy is a professional, has a wife and kids. The whole enchilada. I actually have two different friends that did essentially the same thing. Anyway that's what I do with the rope, and weather or not my belayer is there or not, I am safe.
Yes I agree. Good conversation.
Thanks
Wes
PS I never got loony binge clean!
PPS I agree most sport routes are easy to just clip and lower. But what about Josh? I get to the top and just go off belay. I'm safe on top. Sometimes I belay my second from up top. But often I build an anchor, lower or rap and TR everybody else from the bottom.
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Magic Ed
Trad climber
Nuevo Leon, Mexico
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Apr 25, 2014 - 09:56pm PT
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There should ALWAYS be a CLEAR UNDERSTANDING between the climber and the belayer as to what the lowering process is going to be BEFORE you start climbing.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Apr 25, 2014 - 10:18pm PT
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PS I never got loony binge clean!
Me neither....
have fun, all.
ED..... so true.
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 25, 2014 - 10:27pm PT
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Even when building anchors to TR I never come off belay. I just ask for "tons of slack". Then build the anchor. Call for the take and lower.
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2014 - 12:37am PT
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Ruppell-I see what your saying. I agree that that is pretty SOP and safe. I do this as well.
I've been doing a lot of long routes lately. One of the things we do to get to the top before dark involve reducing the time the team is not moving. I guess that is where my desire to go off belay stems from. In the whatever minutes it might take to set up an anchor the second can be doing all the many things they need to do to get ready to climb. That's probably less safe but is also SOP on multipitch climbs. As you know. Now I realize we are talking about short half pitch climbs but I still am trying to be safe, efficient, and fast. Maybe this is not a good thing I don't know, but that's what I do.
Regardless of weather I am leading or on TR, off belay or always on belay I just always grab the other side of the rope if I can. Besides the safety aspect, it makes some other things efficient and smooth. When I climb I don't want to feel the rope at all. I don't like any tension cheating me out of my climb or changing my balance. So most of the time I reach the anchor with some slack. Slack plus rope stretch could be IDK, 10'? So at that point I just save my belayer the trouble of pulling in all that slack and getting me nice and tight while I hang on to the anchor and yell Take or Got me? I complete the climb clip the rope, build the anchor whatever. Then lower myself down a bit until the belayer has me. Easy.
Wes
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ruppell
climber
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Apr 26, 2014 - 12:57am PT
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I hear ya Wes.
On long routes moving fast is key. Quick anchors and belay change overs are essential. Those two things are part of the reason why I don't have any cool epic stories to tell around the campfire. I almost always use the full 70m of rope I have. Good partners will see 30 feet left and start getting ready to move. By the time the rope comes tight they have their shoes on and the pack on as well. I plug in a few pieces and call off belay and on belay within a minute tops. Sometimes it bites me in the ass and my partner is forced to simul a little until I can get a good anchor. Usually it works out pretty well. Maybe this should be a thread of it's own? lol
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westhegimp
Social climber
granada hills
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Topic Author's Reply - Apr 26, 2014 - 02:52am PT
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Formerly-Whoa that's not good. I hope she is well. What's her story?
Yes, I admit, the way I came upon this "safety technique" was indeed just convenience. There I said it (after you called me out :) I'm lazy and it drives me nuts that I have to pull down arm load after arm load of slack, then sit on the rope while my climber yells over and over Take and Got me?!?! Just so I can lower you back down? My communication skills are great, and besides I can see you! Why don't you just lower yourself onto the line so I don't have to waste time and do more work? Lol end rant.
No really, I lower myself down a few feet to save my wife or my other belayers that trouble. I am a courteous climber in that way. :) That's funny because in everyother way I can be the opposite.
BUT it just happens to be an easy life saving last resort, when you didn't expect to need it, thought you had communicated clearly, knew you had done everything correctly, no brainer I'm getting lowered after sending, belayer has me now, but doesn't.
In all three of the cases in my op this simple thing would have saved them from a bunch of pain. I wonder if this may have helped your friend as well?
Great discussion
Wes
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Apr 26, 2014 - 01:25pm PT
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COMMUNICATION is KEY!!!...
Without it, you're f*#ked.
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 26, 2014 - 01:52pm PT
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This technique saved my life. I had a noob who I had been teaching to belay with other experienced climbers to supervise. She did well, so after a couple outings, we tried a route on our own.
I knew she might have trouble with lowering me, so i grabbed the belayer's side to make sure she had it tight. She did, but when she started lowering me she brought the rope up and defeated the friction of the atc, therefore burning her hands at which point she dropped the rope!! Meanwhile i was clamped on the brake and i basically ended up lowering myself and getting minor rope burns.
That afternoon i bought my first gri gri. I also got her belay lessons at the local gym, because sometimes it seems like significant others can have trouble learning from thier partners.
My basic rule is this. I don't call off belay unless:
1) I'm going to rap.
2) I'm building an anchor to bring up the second on.
If i'm going to lower i either:
1) Attach a draw to the anchor, (if it's a sh!tty stance) and get my belayer to take, then attach my pas.
2) Use my anchor chain to clip in to one bolt and get my belayer to take on that while i finish building and equalizing the anchor.
With your belayer holding you while you build your anchor, the slack is conveniently allready out of the system.
At no point if i am going to lower do i call off belay. Never!
I rarely grab the belay side unless i'm really worried about my belayer. But admit if climbing with noobs i will never put myself in a similar lower sitiation again!
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MattB
Trad climber
Tucson
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Apr 26, 2014 - 02:21pm PT
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Funny how many think holding the rope is a "bad" practice. Possibly the easiest, extra-
gearless safety backup available. saved hundreds, probably thousands of deckings.
it also is good for getting the rope to run in smooth way over any edges...
can also be a pain to a belayer, but, the leader, or whoever is in harm's way
is in charge... there is no standard rule
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 26, 2014 - 02:56pm PT
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Start with this,
I believe in the same process I was taught 40 years ago.
When you, as a belayer, say, "Your belay is on", you are essentially saying, 'I am taking responsibility for your life, I am prepared in every way, I will stay attentive and in clear communication with you, and I will not disregard this responsibility until you tell me, "I'm off belay."
and the mechanics are reduced to irrelevancy.
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