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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:03pm PT
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Wanna give some specific examples of crap anchors & bolts you are referring to, blahblah?
And the 'developers of our era'...exactly who are you talking about?
My response was to Cragman and his 40-years comment, so mid-70s (and thereabouts) is the era I'm talking about.
The new Gordon routes are probably fine--I did some nice, easy modern bolted routes last time I was there (not sure who did the FA, but the routes were in the new book), and they were good fun.
I do see some potential confusion -- it's not the quality of the bolts that I'm referring to (although I think I've seen a lot more older bolts there than I see here in Colo.), rather the bolt / anchor placement (and in the case of anchors, it's actually the lack of them that I'm not happy about).
Too many freaking sketch downclimbs there for my tastes--wastes time and adds unnecessary danger.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:15pm PT
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Too many freaking sketch downclimbs there for my tastes--wastes time and adds unnecessary danger.
I would suggest you stay in the gym.
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drljefe
climber
El Presidio San Augustin del Tucson
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
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Oh brother.
Condolences.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:17pm PT
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Any alpinist reading about 'sketch downclimbs' at almost any crag has to be hurting themselves laughing.
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mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:37pm PT
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BlahBlah: it's called adventure. Danger is an inherent part of adventure. We climb to seek adventure.
If your priority is safety, may I suggest that you go bowling (we'd all be a lot happier).
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Big Mike
Trad climber
BC
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:40pm PT
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Could i suggest maybe that this is not the place for this discussion? Maybe start a new thread.
My condolences to those who lost a friend or loved one.
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blahblah
Gym climber
Boulder
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:42pm PT
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I'd write a longer response but I've got to hurry to meet my friend at the climbing gym (for real)!
Slightly more seriously, I know my comments started this as much as anything, but let's be mindful that this is a thread resulting from a sad death.
While it's true that I'd prefer more "convenience anchors" at JT, I do understand that I'm not the boss there (or, sadly, anywhere outside my humble abode) and if things change, it will likely be because of the needs/wants of a new generation. Time will tell if that will happen.
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drewsky
climber
Seattle
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:47pm PT
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It doesn't really seem appropriate to bicker about the semantics of descending climbs on this thread, but as it appears to occur regardless:
I've spent months and months climbing in Joshua Tree. Some of the downclimbs are 5th class and potentially dangerous, but most of the accidents I've seen or heard tell of seem to have been leader falls, rappelling errors or otherwise related to the use of ropes and gear. Yes, soloing accidents have happened too, of course and I'm sure they've happened during descents as well. Even scrambling through stacked boulders can be pretty harrowing there. One way to mitigate issues is to have at least one person in the group who's comfortable dealing with the logistics of downclimbing while everyone else is either lowered or rappels off. Unfortunately, that may have been what was happening in this case but with unforeseen consequences.
The reality here is that this was a tragic accident that sounds like it was the result of user error. Putting blame on route developers from 40 years ago is completely pointless and irrelevant. The Headstone accident proves that even with fixed anchors, accidents can and do occur. What is relevant is that Joshua Tree sometimes requires a bit more knowledge and gear-related aplomb than do other areas. Education and preparation go a long way towards preventing these incidents, but accidents happen everywhere, even at areas that have predominantly fixed protection. That's the unfortunate reality of our sport.
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 17, 2014 - 06:56pm PT
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I think there's more at work here, and I don't see it getting better.
The geezer generations grew up playing with all kinds of heavy, sharp potentially dangerous objects.
Erector sets
big wood blocks,
Firewood piles
Trees, (Tree houses involving ropes etc.)
Pocket knives
Guns
Cars
Farm equipment
On and on.
Developing an understanding and appreciation of the mechanical laws of the universe came naturally with lessons learned with bruises, cuts and the occasional broken bone.
Successive generations now grow up increasingly isolated from the real world, cocooned in a virtual world, and it could completely escape their understanding that a really big rock could move with the application of a very small lever in just the wrong place, or predict the likely resultant forces on an anchor.
I see the same mental process at work on construction sites all the time too.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Apr 17, 2014 - 07:01pm PT
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Personally, I'd like to see a lot fewer bolts in JT these days....that place could use a little more adventure....
Apologies for thread drift.
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mhay
climber
Bishop, CA
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Apr 17, 2014 - 07:04pm PT
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Don't forget Jarts.
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HighTraverse
Trad climber
Bay Area
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Apr 17, 2014 - 07:23pm PT
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at last I agree with TGT
Running with scissors was a great way to learn survival tactics.
Or to lose an eye or a fingertip or your life.
I am very lucky to have lasted to adulthood will all my "god given" bits in their proper places and proportions.
There was/is natural selection at work.
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fluffy
Trad climber
Colorado
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Apr 17, 2014 - 07:49pm PT
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I can't think of a single sketch down climb in JTree.
There's one, I just can't remember which one it is...helps if you know which way to go
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Apr 17, 2014 - 08:41pm PT
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My point wasn't the natural selection aspect of childhood. Nobody ever died from the mechanics experiments that I recall. (except for ones with cars)
Just that intuitive mechanical reasoning has become as obsolete for the general populace as stalking technique or edible plant identification.
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bluering
Trad climber
Santa Clara, CA
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Apr 18, 2014 - 08:58pm PT
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The "walk off" mantra is all well and good...except there ain't no walkoff of the Headstone, which is where one of these two accidents happened. You are lowering/rapping, or downsoloing 5.6/5.7 as the easiest ways off the formation.
The Rap off of the Headstone is no straight-forward thing, rapping the backside. It's over-hanging, and a knuckle bleeder if you don't know what you're doing.
Just because it's 5.6 to get up there, beginning rappers should be supervised on that rap. It's a beautiful setting though, so I can see how it attracts so many.
These needless deaths are just that, needless. Sure stuff happens in climbing, but many things can be avoided.
It seems that Josh has the highest death rate of crags in America. I attribute that to amateurs trying their hand in the 'real world', without the proper skillz.
I feel really bad about the gal especially. That just did not need to happen. Sad sh#t....God bless her.
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Rankin
Social climber
Greensboro, North Carolina
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Apr 18, 2014 - 09:15pm PT
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Awful news. Condolences to the friends and family of the fallen climber.
I frequent an area that utilizes a lot of natural gear rappel anchors. In the end, climbers are responsible for judging the gear for themselves, and adding or supplementing as needed. It's unreal that three pieces would fail.
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rlf
Trad climber
Josh, CA
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Apr 18, 2014 - 09:52pm PT
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Bluering hit the nail on the head:
It seems that Josh has the highest death rate of crags in America. I attribute that to amateurs trying their hand in the 'real world', without the proper skillz.
I feel really bad about the gal especially. That just did not need to happen. Sad sh#t....God bless her.
I ran SAR out here for 7 years. I also work as a guide. I won't even begin to detail what I have seen.
Bluey has it right.
Sorry for the loss of your friend.
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BG
Trad climber
JTree & Idyllwild
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Apr 19, 2014 - 02:24am PT
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After talking to someone who was on the scence of the accident, I went over there today to take a look. The climb is called Dwarf Among Midgets (5.1). Based on where the rappeller fell, the mostly likely spot for the anchor was a crack that had both macrostructure and microstructure issues- a horizontal crack beneath a massive, detached block perched on an inclined slab. The crack is shallow and a bit flared, and would not be an easy spot to rig a reliable gear anchor. It's quite low and hard to get a good look into without getting down on your hands and knees.
I've set up this climb before as a TR but used a long extendo rope to other anchors 30-40 ft. back from the edge.
There is a set of fairly new bomber rappel/belay bolts with rings about 15 ft. right of where this anchor was rigged, so I'm assuming they were setting it up as a TR.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Apr 19, 2014 - 02:46am PT
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Very, very unfortunate and so sad.
Condolences to the family and friends , and to the climbing partner that must live with this awful tragedy..
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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Apr 19, 2014 - 09:36am PT
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The crack is shallow and a bit flared, and would not be an easy spot to rig a reliable gear anchor.
If you can't "set" a piece of pro (yank real hard multiple times in direction of potential pull)it ain't gonna be good.
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