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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 12, 2006 - 12:03am PT
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ultrabutthole,
you are miserably behind the times!
I now have a Beemer with special WMD capabilities. I'm just getting ready to release the anthrax at Outdoor Retailer and beat a hasty retreat to my secret hideout.
There I will prepare my nuclear powered diamond toothed drill for my assault upon the 5.8 cracks of the world.
Who loves ya baby?
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Tom
Big Wall climber
San Luis Obispo CA
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Aug 12, 2006 - 12:46am PT
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Late to the party:
Climbers tend to be people who don't want other people telling them what to do ("You'll break your neck!") so, the whole ethics argument becomes tangled and complicated.
But, since they are inherently close to the earth ("My face was pressed to the rock, hoping to get some sort of friction from my nose because my feet were slipping . . . . .") they do have a rather good sensibility regarding natural resources, and the need to preserve them.
And therein lies the conflict: a desire to do whatever they want, in the context of an environment with rules and constraints that are fluid, vague, evolving and unwritten.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 12, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Be advised there PR, us that are blessed with "Ultrabuttholes" have the capability to let loose a deluge that nothing in your entire arsenal of "Wanna-be" toys, can deter, nothing. And you know what is even more dangerous, when the owner of such a weapon knows how to utilize those incredible capabilities, in order to bring a storm of hurt upon those individuals that are begging for it. So, beware of what wrath your condescending illogical verbage of mute points may impose upon your very being...
Now back to the point of BW Ethics.
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Aug 12, 2006 - 12:51am PT
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Yo Deuce,
I topstepped to clip that Albatross buttonhead on Sunday. Ho mama! Them beaks don't go in there so good. Cheers.
TR pending.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 12, 2006 - 01:13am PT
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lol
"ultrabuttholes have the capability to let loose a deluge"
Cap'm, she's gonna blow!
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 12, 2006 - 09:39am PT
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PR: You think St. Helen's was bad when she blew...STFB!
Duece, P8(4WD Ledge) of Swiss/American, is no 5.9R unless you're on at least five hits of acid! Yikes! Xavier's Spirit lives on that ledge, laughing away as you come by with the look of "Holy Sh*t...I'm gonna die" on your face!
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 12, 2006 - 11:32am PT
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My comments above tried to make the point that when dealing with first ascent territory especially in loose rock, the view of ethical purity is not going to be simple. That being said, the point Ultrabiker, (don't aim your backside toward me!), makes is very important, especially now that big wall climbing is so popular. Subsequent ascent parties need to have a completely different attitude toward hammering, promoting hammerless climbing is key, and sections on ethics in great books like John's are vital to educate new aid climbers in stone preservation.
Off to Tuolumne for Jeff Schoen's memorial, RIP, try to keep your minds focused on the light!
Peter
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Aug 12, 2006 - 11:49am PT
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Thanks Peter, regards.
STFB ???
Sink the fresh bolts?
Stuff to feed Bozo?
Stupid tough foolish bluster?
Sorry two-bit fukin' bonehead?
LOL
Nature was right; a waste of time. I'm outta here too.
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bringmedeath
climber
la la land
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Aug 12, 2006 - 12:44pm PT
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We did not take it all so seriously as you new turks, but we had a great time aid climbing!
Very well said! Taking stuff too seriously only leads to not having fun.
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 12, 2006 - 03:23pm PT
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JM,
Thanks for answering my question. You are true purist. If anyone has the right to question the legitimacy of Richard's and Mark's micro-enhancements on Wings of Steel, it is you.
Your refusal to chisel a head above The Canoe on Flight of the Albatross and placing a rivet is analogous to Steve Gerberding placing the rivet on the hard pitch above Wino Towers on Reticent Wall. "I could have used the feature that was there, thus increasing the difficulty, but I knew that before long it would fall off. So knowing this, I placed the rivet."
Steve is so bad-ass he doesn't need to artificially increase the rating of a pitch by not drilling a rivet. Without the rivet, that pitch would have been a legit New Wave A5 pitch.
I see on McTopo that the pitch above The Canoe is rated [only] A3, and the rivet isn't shown. I wouldn't have thought that Flight has received very many ascents, so I'm surprised the pitch has been lowered to A3 so soon - what did you originally rate it? How many ascents has the route seen, do you know?
Also - I don't get this:
"One was on the Flight of the Albatross, on the pitch above the Canoe. After a series of shallow beaks and lousy heads up a 2" corner, with a bad fall potential onto the Canoe ledge, I came to a section of the corner with no seam at all. It would have been a simple matter to trench a single head placement in the shallow corner to get past the section, and it would have been quite secure. For me, that is. It would have been much more secure, in fact, than any of the other garbage placements that I had been ascending on. Continuing above the placement were another string of body weight placments. But with future ascents, the manufactured placement would have gotten more and more ratty, and the pitch would become more and more dangerous and difficult. So I drilled."
I don't get that! Why would a manufactured head placement become any more ratty over the years than a non-manufactured one? [Sheesh - thirty El Cap routes, and I still don't get it....]
Great to hear from you, Pete. We met in '99 up in Tuolomne after the Camp 4 thing - I was the guy who had just come down off of Jolly Roger.
On Zenyatta and Aurora, did you guys enhance ["trench"] any head placements?
Peter Mayfield writes,
"Did I agonize over the hammer taps that made a rare mid roof hook move possible?, f*ck no! It was cool, and people still like that pitch."
"Sometimes the drill, aimed straight down, made a sloper hook work on an obvious big feature that would have felt wierd to dowel around."
It sounds as though you guys made quite a few enhancements on Zed-Em.
"If you are good, you know when artistry turns to a travesty and you take the other path."
One man's Artistry [Zed-Em] is another man's Travesty [Wings of Steel].
"I have never had anyone come up to me and state that so and so section was a chisel job or a pegboard, and yet we clearly did not have any black and white limitations on what we did with our hammers."
Now here is the MILLION-DOLLAR QUESTION:
Zed-Em was put up slightly after Wings of Steel if the Reid guide is to be believed. Peter freely admits that they made some enhancements -possibly many - including enhanced hooks.
So why is it that Mark and Richard have had the livin' bejeepers beat out of them for making microscopic enhancements, whereas Bridwell and crew according to Peter above didn't receive any criticism?
Please don't misunderstand me - I am not criticizing Zed-Em nor its ascensionists. If those guys chose to enhance a few placements, then that's cool - they knew what they were doing.
But why is it you guys have beat the snot out of Richard and Mark for hundreds and hundreds of posts about very very small enhancements, but nobody will beat up Bridwell, Mayfield and Row for their obviously bigger and [presumably] more numerous enhancements on Zenyatta?
Paradoxical, eh?
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yo
climber
I'm so over it
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Aug 12, 2006 - 03:45pm PT
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That Canoe pitch is NOT Taco A3(no R). It simply is not. I was scared on that thing. Two rivets lead to OK fixed heads which lead to beak tips which lead to the bolt at 30'. A good cam above that leads to even crappier and more sustained beak tips to a (looked like original) rivet at around 60'+. Easier above.
I haven't done loads of routes to compare it with, and I fully admit to being pretty light duty, but that pitch was harder than any pitch currently on ZM.
Beak TIPS!
I believe the Taco also recommends the Jessica Albatross as a good intro moderate/hard aid route. Again I must disagree with the McMaster. That pitch is a gumbie killer.
Working on TR...
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BrentA
Gym climber
Las Vizzle, on the rizzle
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Aug 12, 2006 - 04:16pm PT
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I concur, the pitch above the canoe has teeth. So rad to hear all the folks that established this stuff talk about what was going through their heads at the time. Thanks so much fellas.
Cheers you bad mofos.
Brent
Edit- The X man "adrift in a Sea of Dreams" photo on Duece's book was fully influential in my life...no sandbaggin, no shiit. Fully stoked me on the path in life I've chosen. Thank you John. That and Twights book have been my bibles...one man's truth...thank you.
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Ultrabiker
Ice climber
Eastside
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Aug 12, 2006 - 06:09pm PT
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Come on RP, I thought your extensive knowledge of "Military" weaponary was deep and vast!! There's so much more to the DOD arsenal than simply partaking in the fun time adventures of utilizing "Hard" weapons (guns) to terminate other humans. The fine art of "Psyche" warfare is far more destructive. And the use of acronyms is a prerequeste...
STFB: Stand The F*ck By!
As for you all digging and chopping on WOS? GTF on it and have fun. Don't worry about the who, why and where dunit BS. All you modern "Wall Dogs" think too much! It's goddamn aid climbing for God's sake gents. It's there, it's been there and it will stay there. Get on it and pretend that you don't give a hoot about the "artificial" propaganda BS. I guaranfrekntya that it will test all of your mettle, regardless if it's manufactured or not! Quit agonizing and whining over superficial BS. I would much rather hook onto some chiseled/manipulated tiny ledge, than to step onto CAMP SIX and find three cooler's full of somebody's (initials SB) sh#t that were left there by this individual that couldn't have given a rats ass about no one else except himself. All after spending months trying to bring fame and fortune to his selfish dumbass name. I would rather slap a #1 Head into a "Cleaned" groove than to encounter what use to be a perfect A4+ Beak/RURP seam and has over night become a travesty of blown out sh*t that only #2 Offset Flexi's and above will maybe work in. On and On.
Let it go boys. Get on it, do your best to do it in the style as the First Ascentist did. And by all means, please do try to have some fun while your sphincter is pulsating and oooozing, would ya! JHC!!!!
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'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
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Aug 14, 2006 - 12:06pm PT
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[bump]
Still await comments and answers to my Million Dollar Question above.
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Mimi
Trad climber
Seattle
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Aug 14, 2006 - 01:54pm PT
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Hello Pete, hang in there. The discussion isn't over.
Cheers,
Mimi
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Aug 14, 2006 - 03:07pm PT
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Pete,
ZM was finished sept. 81. I believe WOS was sometime in 82, a year later. ZM was way less enhanced just by virtue of apx. 82 belay bolts and machine heads, for 18 pitches, vs 149? for 13 new pitches. I described a pitch that took major trundling to make a point about the grosser scale of "enhancement". Yes there were a few enhanced moves, moving slightly beyond "cleaning with intention". But for the most part, existing features were linked boldly with natural moves. Both routes used less holes than both the established adjacent classics, and the next wave of routes that were done near by in later years.
Re. million dollar question. As stated earlier ZM and Aurora were lines that had been attempted before so were already "accepted" as next wave routes for 1981. The local climbing community assumed we would do a good job, and by most accounts we did not let them down. I think there was a logical evolution of what a "good line" was. From the most obvious, to the more tenuous. WOS was too much of a conceptual leap, just from the unlikely looking slab, to be accepted by the local denizens.
Peter
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Lambone
Ice climber
Ashland, Or
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Aug 14, 2006 - 03:32pm PT
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nice job on the Clean ascent Peter! probly lots of fixed stuff, but still hard no doubt?!
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Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
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Aug 14, 2006 - 04:26pm PT
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"Climbing ethics are the "principles of right conduct" by which we climb. As our sport progresses, our ethics change with the times (pitons to clean climbing is an example).
Style has to do with the methods that we use for our ascents (Do you trench kid? Well do ya??).
So when you step into your aiders, it's all about the style Baby"
I think folks worked up about this sort of stuff b/c they (we) feel that f*#king with a natural resource in certain ways defies certain 'principles of right conduct'. Trenching, chipping, drilling, gluing, leaving ropes up for a decade in the high name of avoiding the above, and a zillion other 'vices' undertaken in the name of our 'art'...these are all issues of style, but can also be issues of ethics depending upon one's point of view regarding "right conduct".
Another thought stemming from one of John's earlier posts (might seem out of context now)...On the one hand I've looked to those who know more to inform my ideas and opinions on managing impact on the rock. On the other hand, sometimes I see the opinions of those who know more cited like they're a group of ancient rabbi's with a direct line from G-d telling us what totally arbitrary hocus pocus must be taken to return the sullied silverware to a kosher state. I've noticed that a lot of times respect for history/our betters in climbing can devolve into the acceptance of things that we wouldn't agree with in principle, but defend in the name of those who came before or advanced beyond us.
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Rhodo-Router
Gym climber
Otto, NC
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Aug 15, 2006 - 10:13am PT
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I always thought 'style' had to do with how you climbed, whereas 'ethics' was about your effect on the rock. Obviously the two are closely linked when you're talking about aid climbing.
Beyond this I don't have a lot to add to this discussion, although I think Melissa has a valid point about how something some dude did in 1968 when he was 22 is suddenly a major theological touchstone.
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SuperTopo on the Web
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1. A set of principles of right conduct.
Let us know!