Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:09pm PT
|
You can argue all you want that because the rock is already there that the climb is not art, I will counter that the climb can be artfully done (or less than so.)
Cannot art be interpretive in nature?
How about Olivier Messiaen's music based on bird calls? In a real sense the music was already there. His work was interpretive. Like a climb. Another composer would use the same material differently.
|
|
Jacob
Trad climber
yucky valley
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
|
its only art if a woman is climbing
|
|
phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:19pm PT
|
The piece of ground a dancer dances upon is not art. The dance is.
The Orb at rocktown is beautiful, but it isn't art. Someone climbing it with skill and grace certainly is.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:22pm PT
|
Good point, phool. But, what about non (hu)Man defined? or, does art have to have the the hand of (hu)mankind?
Climbing spiderline is art(as I see it). Is the line not a work of art, just because none of us made it? Maybe it's just 'media.'
( I have no answers just hacking the idea around)
OR does it get back to the observation/ experience thing? Can the line be not art, though every ascent is? Is the track, since iit was selected, part of the vision, the art, even art itself?
|
|
Ksolem
Trad climber
LA, Ca
|
|
|
Aug 10, 2006 - 11:35pm PT
|
"..The piece of ground a dancer dances upon is not art.."
Of course not. The dance floor is not the medium. Space and time and, if used, music provide the medium.
To equate the floor beneath the dancer to the rock we climb on is to compare the paper on which a book is written to the words from which it is composed.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:00am PT
|
yes Ksolem.
and the architectural wonders are works by the great master as it were,
but not climbing art per se,
so it is a collusion of art forms when practicing the art of climbing upon them.
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:05am PT
|
I'm continually ogling the lines and appreciating them as brushstroke components of the marvelous compositions, which are the walls and towers themselves.
|
|
Jaybro
Social climber
The West
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:22am PT
|
What is the nature of the little corkscrew tower that has a climb on it known as 'Ancient Art'?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:24am PT
|
is that a koan?
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:25am PT
|
if knott,
it's a cone, and a twisted one at that.
|
|
Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:41am PT
|
Phoolish, there are ways besides chipping of sculpting rock, and sculpture IS art.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 08:27am PT
|
Sometimes sculpture is craft adn sometimes sculpture is art.
|
|
dirtineye
Trad climber
the south
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 10:45am PT
|
Routes that do not need physical alteration by man to be climbed are natural, not man made.
They are however discovered by man, or envisioned by man.
|
|
Phantom Fugitive
Trad climber
Misery
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 10:54am PT
|
Wrote this essay for Rock & Ice- some of it is seen in the recent issue.
Seems like it fits in this conversation...Climbing is art. Sometimes it's horrendous, flailing, and cussing. Other times it's glorious, inspirational, and fulfilling. I usually fall somewhere in between.
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
One of the principles I learned as an art student was that “there are no straight lines to be found in nature.” I’ve spent the last twelve years proving that theory false—by ascending nature’s most perfectly cleaved fissures. I didn’t last long in art school. Feeling more drawn to lines on the rock, than those in a classroom, I closed my eyes and threw a dart at a map. It hit Boulder, Colorado, so my journey started there. I’ve been throwing darts ever since, but now with my eyes wide open.
Outside the university studio, lines appeared everywhere to me. Leading upwards in to the sky, they converged with dark corners, trailed off into blank faces and ended abruptly at barren summits. Via topographic maps of alpine regions, I found a world perpendicular to that of my childhood in the mountain-deprived Midwest. These steep contours spoke in a language understood not by word or number, but by soul. Their lines were an invitation. As I traced my finger along the ones closest together I discovered a new passion–the untouched, unclimbed straight line. Each remembered form of it intersected in my mind and bled onto the canvas.
I seek seamlessness within my artistic expressions—from map to canvas, canvas to trailhead, trailhead to summit, summit to soul, and back again. Why must “art” be constrained to the second and third dimensions? Climbing provides the outlet to express on a fourth dimension: movement.
As climbers effortlessly flow up a desert tower, the juxtaposition of their forms and nature’s geometry creates an expressive experience that is art in itself—even without the recorded image. My motivation is not to capture this movement, but the movement within. What is happening inside as we pursue these vertical passions? Personal metaphors and symbolic imagery speak more to me than a more literal expression.
But why art? Why climbing? For the same reason I chose to paint with ochre yellow today instead of phthalo blue: Intuition. Something they can’t teach in school. I’ve learned not to fight it.
|
|
scuffy b
climber
The town that Nature forgot to hate
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 11:16am PT
|
You come to an unfamiliar cliff, and you see one climber start
up a route. You say to yourself "that dude is really really
strong."
If you had been there earlier and seen his partner on the same
line, you would have said "that is a beautiful climb.
I would love to climb that line."
Is this a difference between an artist and a craftsman?
Between a Master and an undistinguished artist?
There were plenty of people who thought that Picasso's works
were not Art.
|
|
Melissa
Gym climber
berkeley, ca
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 12:16pm PT
|
Tell that to the critters. ;-)
|
|
Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 11, 2006 - 12:43pm PT
|
Lots of fun stuff here,
Highlights for me include, but not limited to:
Maysho's wall piece
Phantom's rumination
|
|
phoolish
Boulder climber
Athens, Ga.
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:21pm PT
|
Dingus,
Maybe each individual ascent is a manmade thing, but the route itself is there whether a person is on it or not. If you see a line up a cliff and have no idea whether it's been climbed before, is it a route yet?
Art is a skilled creation. Hell, that's what the word means, etymologically speaking. Climbing is skilled, but in climbing a route, you're not creating anything, you're just using what's already there.
If I walk across a field, am I creating something?
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
|
Aug 11, 2006 - 01:40pm PT
|
There's plenty of art in climbing a route, first ascent or last, if the climber consciously uses skill and creative imagination in doing it. The act of climbing, like dance, is art if performed with such skill and beauty that it transcends craft. Most of us are not accomplished artists.
As for the route itself being an artistic creation, I think it can be because there are always choices to make along the way that are entirely up to the climber, and not nature. Some route finders are more skilled than others at putting the puzzle together. Read Peter's post about ZM, Aurora, and Big Chill.
Think about Ansel Adams. He took pictures of things that were already there. His photos are not art? There was at one time a debate about that: How can it be art if you're just photgraphing something, and not interpreting it in a painting, or a sculpture?
Compare your photos of Half Dome with the ones Ansel Adams took and I think you will agree that there's a great deal more art in his photos than in yours.
|
|
Todd Gordon
Trad climber
Joshua Tree, Cal
|
|
Climbing and art go hand in hand.....
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!