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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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I love this discussion. The person with the most knowledge on the subject, BASE104, posts once, and everyone ignores what he says and moves ahead with his or her preconceived notions of what to do. It makes the discussion on the climate change thread look downright rational by comparison. I guess you really are entitled to your own facts.
John
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Or as Turgenev put it:
"Most people can't understand how others can blow their noses differently than they do."
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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Sure, if you give him what he wants, and you can have your stinking pipeline (that will get built at some time no matter what)
This is true and probably why the proponents of this pipeline won't allow the political extortion
described above and will therefore just wait until Obama leaves office
They won't really seriously push the completion of this project until he is gone .
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Petitions are not stupid and futile. Groups like the Sierra Club and 350.org, who have been actively opposing the pipeline - and preventing its approval for 6 years now, are not stupid - they've been very successful, so far. Joining forces with hundreds of thousands of other like minded citizens is how this stuff gets done.
Yes, there are a bunch of other things to do about our energy future - and none of them make this concrete, here-and-now issue any less important.
Stay focused. Cellulose fuels and the Oglalla aquifer are important, too - aaaand they're very different issues requiring different forms of activism. Don't let the 'knee jerkeros' sidetrack you. So far, you're winning this.
In any case, groups like 350.org - with over half a million members now, once organized, can turn their focus to other projects, whether or not the pipeline gets approved.
This kind of thing requires a long game.
People said all the same things about marijuana legalization - the first step in ending 42 years of a failed, expensive, and violent War on Drugs. A strategic, multi-year campaign finally won the day, and now the whole world is changing as a result.
Most people won't pony up and make it happen. Still more will criticize. That's fine. Critics are a dime a dozen. You can be one of the few that will.
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JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
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What Tvash describes is, indeed the environmental game. There are judges, or in this case, Presidents, that will do the bidding of the Sierra Club, until economic preferences finally prevail, usually after years of appeals or, in this case, a change of administration to one that isn't purchased already by the let-them-eat-cakers, but the process adds years of delay, so the proponent really needs to want it.
This issue isn't environmental or economic now. It's religious, and establishment of religion violates the First Amendment.
John
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okie
Trad climber
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The aquifer's gonna run dry before the fossil fuels do. I think this century is gonna have another dust bowl. The pipeline will someday be covered up by dunes of wind blown dead soils.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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A strategic, multi-year campaign finally won the day, and now the whole world is changing as a result.
This is true. As I've noted elsewhere in this forum the activist Left in this country operates on the principle of incrementalism rather than open revolution---a strategy adhered to for many decades now --and they are good at it and don't give up easily. This is partly because it is driven by the aging baby boomer generation---a politically savvy radicalized generation, currently in senior positions in our government and other key institutions.
Eventually however, their long term prospects for winning this one is pretty dim. Mariquana or Gay Rights is a whole lot different as an issue or a crusade, as opposed to the enormous energy needs that will only get increasingly crucial with the passage of time. At the end of the day on social issues ,like Gay Marriage ,many Americans really don't give a rats ass---because it does not directly impact them---their jobs, their mobility, their pocketbooks, their economy.
The nation's energy needs do however---especially in the not too distant future.
This is a case in which the incrementalism dynamic is actually working against the activist Left. Time is on the side of the energy developers.
Better take the advice given by the poster above and go for the extortion angle, before it's too late.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Ward, that's a fantastically cynical and frankly sad view of Americans I don't subscribe to. Perhaps we live in different countries - your experience doesn't resemble mine at all. I've found working with the public that people do care deeply about fairness, justice, and the environment, not just their paycheck or what affects them, personally. People naturally seek connection and meaning in the broader sense.
Voters will rise to the occasion if you're straight with them and respect their intelligence. The popular wisdom is that voters are a stupid herd, so many campaigns, if not most, treat them that way. That's a mistake that's burned many a candidate and initiative.
And lets stop overusing the term 'religion' as an attempt to marginalize important issues and the passion behind them, shall we? That one's been worn thread bare by the climate denier crowd. At the very least come up with something original. There is nothing faith based about Keystone - the numbers are all there.
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Ward Trotter
Trad climber
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I've found working with the public that people do care deeply about fairness, justice, and the environment, not just their paycheck or what affects them, personally. People naturally seek connection and meaning in the broader sense.
The last person I knew that talked like that was a Millennial Occu-pooper trust fund baby.
Why don't you and your buddies just Occu-poop the pipeline?
Forget I asked that question...
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wilbeer
Mountain climber
honeoye falls,ny.greeneck alleghenys
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JE,I read BASE's opinion,while I agree with him,I do not agree with the sentiment,"We all continue to use far more fuel than we need, and people think that riding a bike to work will help."
To think this is very cynical and flat wrong.
Ed was right ,you folks should learn about Biodiesel.
Not to be confused with ethanol and it is available nationwide,[you might have to search your computer,but it is]
http://www.biodiesel.org/using-biodiesel/finding-biodiesel/retail-locations/re
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philo
Trad climber
Is that light the end of the tunnel or a train?
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So many seem mindlessly locked into a failing paradigm.
They can not see past the internal-combustion engine.
Thus they aver that we must siphon off every drop of hydrocarbons -Drill baby drill- regardless of the cost to the planet -Spill baby spill.
Anyone who opposes developments like the Keystone pipeline projects should not go climbing unless they can ride a bike there. They simply can't imagine a future other than their past so they justify any Koch-eyed idea that promises to give them cheap gasoline for the gas guzzling SUVs. Damn the environment and full guzzle ahead.
Wake up it's the 21st century. You are not sitting at home waiting for the delivery of whale oil and bemoaning the fact that the wheel wright strike means your Conestoga wagon will stay up on blocks longer. Thank god our world hasn't relied on these anti-visionary, head in the tar sands Luddites for our progression forward. They would still be arguing that there are not enough caves to go around and sneering at the foolish lunacy of any new fangled notion like the brick.
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2014 - 09:47am PT
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What if we all signed the petitions and we all got 100 of our friends to sign the petitions and we stopped this thing for now.
Then in the meantime something like this gets started.
Also we could start a stop breeding campaign world wide. Every couple gets to have only one child each. We could cut the population of the world in half..................
Just dreaming
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karen roseme
Mountain climber
san diego
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Topic Author's Reply - Mar 4, 2014 - 09:52am PT
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also eat less meat...
Topic Author's Original Post - Nov 5, 2013 - 07:07pm PT
About 80 percent of the world’s farmland is used to support the meat and poultry industries, and much of that goes to growing animal feed. An efficient use of resources this is not. For example, a single pound of cooked beef, a family meal’s worth of hamburgers, requires 298 square feet of land, 27 pounds of feed, and 211 gallons of water.
Supplying meat not only devours resources but also creates waste. That same pound of hamburger requires more than 4,000 Btus of fossil-fuel energy to get to the dinner table; something has to power the tractors, feedlots, slaughterhouses, and trucks. That process, along with the methane the cows belch throughout their lives, contributes as much as 51 percent of all greenhouse gas produced in the world.
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crazyfingers
climber
CA
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There isn't a single environmental issue that doesn't at its roots come from the problem of increasing human population. Arguing the details of pipelines, plastic grocery bags, fish populations, etc., etc. without seeking a solution with human population is the red herring of all red herrings.
The reason why this idea doesn't get more traction is because economies are based on growth, and squeezing more value out of a human is a lot tougher than just adding another, and another...
Food is a perfect example of how this works. Food producers have for decades been trying to outpace inflation by: adding costs to whole foods through processing, finding cheaper sources of raw materials via GMO, increasing portion sizes while increasing prices even more, the branding of Organic, and riding the wave of increasing population, among many others. Problem is, you can only get a human to eat so much food, and getting them to pay more is a tough business.
Expanding population is THE single easiest way for corporations to maintain profits, regardless of the business they're in, and is the driving force behind most if not all of the world's problems related to resources and how they are used.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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That fly by night group the Sierra Club is actively opposing Keystone. I think all they do is useless petitions, though.
It's interesting to me that when someone sends around a petition, so many viewers instantly assume that's all that person is doing.
Then characterizes six years of winning - and running, as a loss.
Three common shout down tactics in one post.
The most successful way to win an issue campaign is to work with one or more powerful advocacy groups, like the Sierra Club, and follow their strategic plan and its tactics, which involved a variety of actions. It seems to me this is pretty much exactly what Karen is doing.
The ACLU, a very successful advocacy organization, uses petitions all the time as part of its campaigns. When combined with lobbying and a decent public information campaign they are, in fact, very effective.
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crazyfingers
climber
CA
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Not all or nothing Dingus, but getting at the heart of the matter. There is little to no discussion about population control, despite it being such an important issue.
I support the open debate of environmental issues, but population should always be brought up in a constructive way and made central to the discussion.
Regardless if pipeline A gets built, or B instead, or a train car gets loaded up, or a tanker ship, there are needs for resources and there will always be people that put profit above all else.
And even if the energy dilemma is solved, there's an endless line of other problems stemming from population.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Actually, marijuana is now fully legal in two states, WA and CO, and will very likely be legal in AK and OR by this November via referendum. It is also now legal in a growing number of municipalities - Portland MN, Cleveland OH to name a couple. Half the states have some form of legalization or decriminalization now. That number has grown rapidly in recent years.
For the fed's part, the AG of the US issued two directives this year stating that the feds will not interfere with state level legalization.
On the international level, Uruguay just became the first country to legalize in Jan - thanks to WA. The drug policy director of the ACLU of WA met with Uruguay's president several times to walk him through the process beforehand. Along those lines, the ACLU of WA is currently in discussion with a number of other countries - Austria, Holland, Mexico, to name a few, who are seriously looking into just saying yes. There have not been any talks with Syria to date to my knowledge.
What sways voters is not the right to smoke out - its the civil rights issue of having the world's highest incarceration rate - a quarter of which is for marijuana. Add to that the statistically proven 3:1 discrimination against blacks across the entire criminal justice system - arrest rates, conviction rates, longer sentences - and voters quickly recognize that marijuana is one of the most pressing civil rights issues of our time.
Hope this helps cut through the haze a bit.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Very interesting observation, Dr. F. I wonder if and how those landowners are organizing?
TOO BIG TO SUCCEED!!!
Or not.
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Elcapinyoazz
Social climber
Joshua Tree
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Which comes first?
1. Biological crisis that wipes out large % of human population. Think west nile, bird flu, etc.
2. Resource war that wipes out large % of human population.
3. Widespread famine from crop failure due to climate change that wipes out large % of human population.
Mother earth will solve the population growth problem one way or another. In the meantime, I don't want to live on a filthy planet with a personally reduced lifespan from sucking petrol and coal exhaust fumes, and leave future generations a bigger mess than they can ever correct. All because we're too f*#king selfish to forgo 3000sqft houses and SUVs, and are by god entitled to all the corn fed, antibiotic filled, lifelong confined to a feedlot livestock we can cram down our fat American gobs on its way to add to the lard on our fat American asses.
Stupid americans.
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Tvash
climber
Seattle
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Personally, I think depopulation may happen this century - but it will likely be more voluntary and gradual than catastrophic. Glass half full of Zoloft, perhaps - but that less titillating scenario seem more likely to me, even if this is the age of the disaster movie.
And we're not that stupid - we're figuring some things out.
Fully automated electric cars for one. That's not far in the future. Optimized use of zero emission personal vehicles without personal ownership - and optimized level loading of the grid. Plus - no more traffic jams or car insurance.
Green buildings - huge opportunity here.
More specifically - Passive solar water heating - huge opportunity here, too.
A rapidly changing American diet - yup, we're getting greener, even if Big Ag is still around.
My home town on Seattle is changing very fast - lots of shared rides (Car2Go, etc), increased urban density, lots of electrics/hybrids/subcompacts, lots of solar, a huge increase in the wind farms out east, plenty veggie gardens...
Maybe some of your folks don't see this shift - but its pretty obvious here. And if it can happen here...
One thing we're not figuring out is global warming. That will continue to f*#k us hard without saying I Love You. The latter part of this century is going to be a very tough time for everyone.
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