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klk
Trad climber
cali
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I'm looking for opinions derived by critical thinking, that is, discerning truth from falsity by reasoning to conclusions that are based upon empirical evidence. What value is an opinion about a particular method when it comes from someone who has never experienced the method under consideration?
i have experienced manual feeding solo systems many times. they are basically useless to me outside of improv emergency or other specialized applications.
moreover, all others things equal, manual-feed systems are potentially more hazardous than comparable self-feeding systems because they generate opportunities to fall with slack in the system or to gank a tracking grab. worse, a complicated system with lots of gear, that is only functional on routes that can be climbed with one-arm, are likely to prove most attractive to the kinds of folks who shouldn't be rope-soloing in the first place.
smoothness, flexibility and reliability of feed are the things i most dream of improving.
if your system improves on that aspect of the current preferred grigri system, or it if even equals it, then tell us how. better, post a video so we have something like "empirical evidence."
i'm with dmt on his changeover comments, btw. dremel mod and bungee instead of tape for the keeper has made laps pretty smooth.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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this is my favorite method of top rope soloing;) running my rap rope through the biner means i can do laps without trailing the rope or backpacking it and still know that the rope is handy if i throw a crampon.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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What value is an opinion about a particular method when it comes from someone who has never experienced the method under consideration? How can one arrive at objective evidence that can validate, or invalidate, their opinion, if they've never even performed the experiment?
Most of us that TR solo or lead-rope-solo for that matter have dealt with a system that requires the climber to constantly manage the rope or the devices in the system. It's just part of the process of trying out a bunch of different things until you find what's right. This empirical evidence allows us to know that ANY system that requires this is a nonstarter.
You're trying really hard to act like you're taking the experienced high ground against all the people you perceive are speaking without knowing anything just because they haven't used your exact system. Obviously, acting the way you've chosen makes sense because it gives you the ability to ignore tangible critiques of the overall system while you cling to specifics of parts of the system that are irrelevant to the overall critique.
Have fun climbing out there, or at least, have fun climbing well below your limit and mucking about with your gear. Hell, if you're that into playing with systems, just get into bigwalling; you'll get all the clusterf*** you can handle.
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tradmanclimbs
Ice climber
Pomfert VT
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my system is no hands zero hassel. rope runs free as a bird:)
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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In referring to WBraun: BTW, just because someone is famous doesn't mean they always know what they are talking about.
Sad that your research stopped at only that Werner is "famous" which in itself has nothing to do with safety systems. A bit more might have yielded this pertinent info:
7 The longest-standing SAR-siters are Werner Braun and John Dill, who have been working for YOSAR since 1971 and 1974, respectively. Braun is 61, and Dill is 70. http://www.climbing.com/climber/10-things-you-didnt-know-about-yosar/
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2014 - 09:51pm PT
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"i have experienced manual feeding solo systems many times. they are basically useless to me outside of improv emergency or other specialized applications." -- kik
As I stated in my original post, my particular system IS for a very specialized, personal application: It's a quick and dirty way for me to safely do solo laps, strictly for the exercise, and nothing more. I certainly never suggested it as a replacement for the self-tending systems that top-rope soloers are currently using, and which I have also used myself.
Just to be clear, I'm not suggesting that the people who haven't personally put the RAD system I've described to the test don't know anything. I'm sure that every one of the contributors to this forum knows a lot more about climbing than I do. I am only challenging the comments made about this specific and admittedly unusual TR soloing system, which has been adapted for one particular purpose, because nobody has actually subjected this system to unbiased testing within the parameters of its intended purpose.
So far, the criticisms of the RAD system I've described have been:
1. It's complicated.
Perhaps, but so is a system with two Mini Traxions, and/or using two ropes, plus having to rig a separate rappel device to descend. My hat is off to those people who can accomplish the change-overs in 30 seconds flat.
2. It doesn't work totally hands-free.
Correct, but that's not a problem for me within the scope of my particular application. I wouldn't want to use this system in situations where having to tend it becomes a barrier to my climbing safely.
3. It is less efficient than a self-feeding system.
When it comes to the act of free climbing, I agree. When it comes to the multiple change-overs between ascending and descending, I have found it to be more efficient in my clumsy hands. If you're one of the 30-second change-over guys, YMMV.
4. It is not as safe as a self-feeding system.
I'd need to see the data supporting that claim before I'll buy into it. Anecdotes and accident reports are not persuasive enough by themselves, because there are so many variables involved. Testing devices under controlled, laboratory-like conditions is a much better way to gather reliable data.
5. It is only functional on routes that can be climbed with one arm.
Did I forget to mention that I only have one arm, and one leg? Not really, but that comment does raise the question of whether a RAD system would be useful for climbers with physical disabilities, or people who might want to temporarily aid climb to get past a crux. I'm still wondering if, for some people, using a chalk bag requires a one-armed route?
6. The system has a greater potential for developing hazardous slack in the rope.
That is generally true when it comes to manual-feed systems. However, I have not found slack build-up to be a problem with this particular system, in the way that I use it. If it did demand greater attention to rope management, I would avoid it in most situations.
7. It's a pain to use.
I guess we differ in our pain thresholds. It's all relative, isn't it? If it's a pain to build a bomber anchor, then you can always free-solo like Honnold, right?
8. It's a stupid system for the application.
Sorry, but it appears we were talking about different applications. My clearly stated application is quite limited, while everyone else seems to be talking about maxed-out solo climbing on a fixed rope using a self-tending system.
I am looking forward to one or more people on this forum putting this particular RAD system to the test and commenting on both its strengths and weaknesses.
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Spider Savage
Mountain climber
The shaggy fringe of Los Angeles
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From the diagram in the original post, this system seems expensive and complicated.
My Rock Exotica Solist has workd great for 20 years. Simple, and it works; one device, chest harness. Not foolproof but I'm no fool.
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couchmaster
climber
pdx
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Mr Bean said: "I just tie a heap of alpine butterflies in my rope and have two cows tails so that one is always clipped in, its just like sport climbing except you have the clips right where you want them."
I've done that and feel very comfortable. Usually occurs when a partner bails. If you can double the rope cause it's a 1/2 pitch length or less, or have 2 ropes, rap a single line and tie the knots in the other (I usually do figure 8's) right at the cruxes and good stances. I'll usually keep 3 lockers with knots clipped to them on my loop and drop one when needed.
Other things I've used with backup knots:
*Single Jumar. -Yeah, don't fall.
*Ushba Titanium Ascender -
*Microtrax
*Grigri (by itself)
*Soloist
*Silent Partner
The soloist is the best of the bunch but it still makes me nervous and needs to be set up right. The knowledge that it won't hold an inverted fall is a reminder not to be climbing out over roofs or forgetting your backup knots.
For leading I like Healys system of a Eddy best.
Mickster, thanks for the update you what you like. Have you tried the 2 MiniTrax system? BTW, don't get on anything too hard where you go for it and don't keep it snug unless you move to a dynamic line and pad it at the edges.
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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It's a quick and dirty way for me
I don't think that phrase means what you think it means.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2014 - 10:57pm PT
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"Quick-and-Dirty"
See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quick-and-dirty
"...an easy way to implement a workaround or "kludge," Its usage is popular among programmers, who use it to describe a crude solution or programming implementation that is imperfect but which solves or masks the problem at hand, and is generally faster and easier to put in place than a proper solution."
Works for me.
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WBraun
climber
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The soloist is the best of the bunch but it still makes me nervous and needs to be set up right.
Yes very very smooth device for top roping.
Bomber.
I used it to belay myself soloing Astroman once.
Only needed it on the 5.11 sections, the rest I just free soloed dragging the rope.
Didn't use any back up knots nor ever tied into the end.
Just left the end hanging in free space.
Mickster, I haven't had a chance to try your system yet.
It's been pouring rain nonstop.
I did clip a grigri into one of our 12mm ropes, the same ropes we use for mini traxion top rope.
The damn grigri wouldn't move without extreme effort by user intervention where's the mini traxion slides up the 12mm rope effortless.
What am I doing wrong?????
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j-tree
Big Wall climber
Classroom to crag to summer camp
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"...an easy way
I don't think that word means what you think it means.
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 8, 2014 - 11:38pm PT
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"What am I doing wrong?????" -- WBraun
Werner, neither does my Grigri 2 self-feed with thick and fuzzy ropes. However, with my newish 3/8" (9.5mm) rope, plus enough weight on the free end, it will self-feed, although a little hesitantly at first, when it is hanging down from my belay loop and the rope is exerting a downward pull.
Having the pull of the weighted rope directed upward via the pulley that's attached to the ascender becomes a game-changer. In that situation, the Grigri 2 self-feeds quite well, and also requires less weight on the rope, because having the pulley in the system increases its mechanical advantage.
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WBraun
climber
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So now I have to switch all the ropes to smaller size.
I'm not famous.
No one knows me.
When I was in the Amazon jungle the Indians there laughed at me and called me a stupid white man ......
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cuvvy
Sport climber
arkansas
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I'm gonna start bowling. Seems like it might be a lot easier
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Mickster
Social climber
New Jack City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 9, 2014 - 09:12pm PT
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"So now I have to switch all the ropes to smaller size." -- WBraun
No, you'll need to keep those 12mm cables for SAR. Maybe you could just hit up a sport climber and borrow some lighter ropes and a Grigri 2 for testing purposes.
When it comes to the various methods that have been proposed for TR soloing, perhaps a judicious application of the scientific method could help delineate the "best practices" for a given set of conditions. Formulating testable hypotheses, and repeating experiments with only one variable changed at a time, would yield valuable data with which to refine our hypotheses or improve our practices.
Whenever a scientist discovers something new, they typically share their findings with colleagues so their experiments can be independently replicated to see if they will produce the same results in different hands. This process of independent testing is crucial to the advancement of scientific knowledge, be it rocket science or "rock science."
Werner, I appreciate your interest in replicating my "experiment" and look forward to your results. As far as I know, nobody else has tried this system for TR soloing. Until someone else does, I will retain my precarious position as the reigning expert on top-rope soloing with this particular RAD system.
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Hummerchine
Trad climber
East Wenatchee, WA
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Feb 24, 2014 - 02:00pm PT
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Just ran across this thread. I like your setup, but not for solo-toproping. It just seems overly complex, and having to slide the Basic up by hand is a deal-breaker for me. I've done massive amounts of solo-toproping for about 25 years, and I've experimented with many types of rigging and devices. Personally, I don't want to have to do anything manually with the system...it should feed automatically. Two Micro-Ascenders are my personal favorite...sometimes on one rope, one attached to belay loop, the other to a half-runner girth hitched to harness. Sometimes I'll jury rig a chest harness with a double runner to keep the top unit higher with zero slack. Sometimes I'll even use two ropes. The stuff Petzl has posted on their website is excellent.
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JimT
climber
Munich
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Feb 25, 2014 - 03:34am PT
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When it comes to the various methods that have been proposed for TR soloing, perhaps a judicious application of the scientific method could help delineate the "best practices" for a given set of conditions. Formulating testable hypotheses, and repeating experiments with only one variable changed at a time, would yield valuable data with which to refine our hypotheses or improve our practices.
Whenever a scientist discovers something new, they typically share their findings with colleagues so their experiments can be independently replicated to see if they will produce the same results in different hands. This process of independent testing is crucial to the advancement of scientific knowledge, be it rocket science or "rock science."
But since you havenīt organised a series of trials you donīt have any reported findings so you donīt know that your system has probably been tried hundreds of times before and rejected.
Iīm not as famous (or old) as Werner but at least in the age stakes getting there and use the setup described for bolting routes for the last 20 years or so and one does solo a fair bit trying moves and particularly getting over the top to change the anchor or whatever. It sucks producing a cluster-f*ck at the belay loop with the sling catching on everything going.
Moving the Basic up by hand is impractical on anything harder than a path and once you have the whole length of the rope hanging below the adding the pulley makes it more than twice as hard anyway (with a 1:2 and a long rope youīre going to have to push best part of 15kg UP the rope against your struggling finger in that crap mono, something my old joints donīt need). Once I start soloing I dump the Basic off the rope and rely on the GriGri alone because once the griGri moves up underneath the Basic the self-feeding is appalling.
For toprope solo I use a Shunt on one strand and a modded GriGri 1 on the other or just the GriGri on a single strand or depending on the ropes a RollnLock (same as a Microtrax) or whatever I feel like on the day.
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raymond phule
climber
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Feb 25, 2014 - 05:32am PT
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I really didn't understand the system in question but my system works very well.
Attach the middle point or two ropes at the anchor. Use a clog, ascender minitraxion etc on one rope and a grigri on the other rope. The grigri is used as an backup (pull in the rope once in a while) and it make it possibly to very easily get into rappelling.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Feb 25, 2014 - 09:22am PT
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Oy... there's simpler and more "rapid" methods.
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Let us know!