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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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This thread is great. I read Russ' summary for WoS and now believe I have a sensible understanding--future history is tough to master. Thanks Russ.
As for your questions, Lois, you have been given plausible answers, but...
1. The ‘leader’ in climbing is just like any other leader: he or she shows the way, provides a path or method, makes promises to the followers and encourages them, and reaps the rewards of leadership—what ever those might be. In climbing as in politics, if the leader fails (falls) the followers try to arrest the fall and set the leader back on a rightful course. If this fails, and the leader is still alive, the followers will usually set the ex-leader up in business, selling shoes or perhaps making documentaries on global warming. Just as in politics, there are no real friends, just alliances.
2. It is true that El Cap is covered with hardware, but it is relatively small and hard to see. You can test this yourself by staring at a recent photo of El Cap—can you see any of the hardware?
3. A route is part of the rock that has a rope hanging from it. This is the ‘path’ set by the leader. The ropes shows the way. This is why they are so brightly colored, so they can cross and get tangled, but a follower can always find his or her way. This is how the rest of us know what the leaders have done.
Lately, there has been a lot angst in the climbing community because some leaders are climbing up rocks without trailing a rope. This really confuses the followers. We cannot know for sure which path the leader has taken. We can only guess and speculate. It leads to lots of arguments that might as well be about religion or Middle Eastern politics.
John Bachar is trying to create technology for virtual ropes that everyone can see even if they aren’t really there. This would be a big step forward. (Also, they are very light and dry quickly.)
4. The standard model for climbers is that the rope protects you if you fall off the rock. However when the rope is below you, the logic becomes convoluted and only really works if a leader falls up the route. In short, climbers get banged up when they fall because their partners hammer on them for wasting time and ruining the ropes. Leaders aren’t supposed to fail, if they do, they pay the price.
5. Wall rats and hang dogs are unkind references to the personalities and facial features of certain climbers.
6. Camp 4 is a shrine to a way of life that is supposed to have existed in the past--in the paradise at the beginning of climbing time.
It is protected by a series of treaties with the Federal government. Sort of like an Indian reservation or the Vatican—a place of historical and mythical or spiritual significance to the true ‘tribe’ of climbers. It’s against the law to clean it up. There are also regulations that govern how loud it must be and a minimum proportion of the inhabitants that must be drunk or stoned—these are in place so that tourists and visiting climbers can have an ‘authentic’ Yosemite experience (an executive at the Curry Company came up with the idea). However, most climbers only show up at the major holiday services, but otherwise stay away. Werner is the caretaker.
7. Jim Bridwell is a mythical figure. There is a shrine in Camp 4 for him. His original nick name was ‘The Bod,’ but that caused all sorts of confusion with real climbers all of whom are ripped and charismatic. So someone came up “The Bird’ and it stuck.
The pictures you see of ‘The Bird’ are from Ouch!—it’s his day job to maintain the myth of ‘The Bird.’ He had him in a crew cut and rolled cuffs for a long time, we had to ease the myth along a bit for the 60s and 70s. No one had the heart to put him into spandex or a leisure suit, so the image sort of got stuck in the 70s milieu.
How you refer to him and whether or not you lay flowers at his shrine in Camp 4 is up to you. But, most of us believe that you can gain a greater depth of spiritual understanding if you keep you voice down, cover you shoulders, proffer flowers and light candles. On the other hand, there are some vulgar climbers around who insist that all that crap is just to keep from disturbing climbers hiding in the shrine who are trying to sleep off the heavy partying that goes on at Camp 4.
8. Climbing is about achieving nothing in perfect harmony with the practice of mastering the thoroughly useless. It’s whacked, with secret rules (doors too), and attracts *very intelligent* people who can’t make it in the real world. However, it beats riding motorcycles or living in a fantasy world on the internet.
9. Rock climbing is all about the rules. Think of an open field, a stick, a ball, and kids looking for something to do. What comes next? Why, rules, of course.
However in climbing, unlike stick and ball games, the rules change all the time. There have been efforts to write it all down and try to get it straight, but it is pretty hopeless. It just keeps getting worse. The ‘Climber's Forum’ is an attempt to get climbers to agree on something, and you can judge for your self that it doesn’t work.
The reason there are so many routes in Yosemite is because no one can agree on anything. Someone will think they have discovered the best approach, acquires a uniquely colored rope, finds a few followers and establishes a new route only to have it criticized (and physically abused, in some cases) by other climbers. Then someone gets a new idea and puts up another route.
It is like religious sects. The more time and the more participants, the more versions you get. For sure if we could agree on the perfect set of rules, we would just have one route.
10. As I understand it, John, as a young man, was riding around with his girl, hopelessly lost. The girl insisted that he stop and ask for directions. He finally succumbed and asked the way. The old man he asked had no idea what John was saying and randomly pointed at Camp 4. This is the genesis story of Yosemite rock climbing, a story that we all pass along to our children. There is even a smallish group of climbers who believe that they should go door-to-door telling this story.
Oh, yeah, after waiting around for John to return with the directions—which he never did, the girl split.
Best regards, Buzz
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426
Sport climber
Buzzard Point, TN
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Brownpoint, one of my fave Fishism ever....
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Roger
Thanks so much for taking the time and providing such thoughtful answers. I am sure you must have been climbing for a long time. Everything seems much clearer to me now.
There is only one thing. You numbered the answers, but I forget which questions correspond to which numbers. Would it be too much trouble to repeat each question before each answer.
Have you ever read John Long's Climbing Book. It almost seems like you might have known him. Is he related to the Bird? I have many more questions, but I must get back to work.
PS. If I have anymore questions after writing this, I will post them later.
PPS. Do you think it would be possible to learn how to climb without actually leaving level ground? I am so interested in this rock climbing thing, but I am just not that brave.
PPPS. Can one weave a rug with one of said virtual ropes? Would it be a virtual rug, or a real rug made of virtual rope?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Now TiG, those were way too intelligent a set of followup questions to have come from Lois. It was a good effort but you need to take it down even more levels of intelligence to even come close. Frankly, I don't think a climber could, or should, ever stoop so low as to accurately portray Lois. Poor Lois, so out of place and under appreciated here in Taco land. I think it also escapes her how different climbers really are. If she really knew what freaks we are she might not want to hang out here any more. She certainly would be mortified to learn how twisted Russ really is.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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Shorttimer -
Sorry. I thought the only criticism would be the paucity of words and maybe no typos. I will try softer next time.
PS. I should have put in at least one malapropism as well, right?
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Well yeah, you were not nearly long-winded enough. And you need to lose the Locker-esque postscripts.
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nutjob
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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I must admit that after reading beyond the opening list of questions from LEB, interesting stuff surfaced from this thread. I hereby resign from the job of conversation police.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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ShortTimer - Rajmit once pointed out to LEB that PS was for letters back in the days of pen and ink / typewriter - that using it was archaic in the electronic world. That advice was lost on her.
Review first post in this thread! LOL. (and another one in this same thread.)
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Ahhh, just shows how well I read her posts. I either didn't notice the ps and pps or, most likely, I never bothered reading that far. It's funny, I originally thought Lois was kinda slow. Then I thought she was just being intentionally obtuse. But after reading this thread I am pretty sure I was right in the first place and have been giving her entirely too much credit.
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G_Gnome
Social climber
Tendonitis City
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Lois, that is part of the reason I post here too. Smart people. Just remember that ALL serious climbers have a sickness. If you keep that in mind then you won't get hurt.
The WoS guys ARE being vindicated it would seem. Not everyone is willing to take the noose off their necks just yet, but they are down off their horses. At this point in time everyone is sort of standing around kicking dirt with their shoes and thinking about apologizing.
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Oh Lois girl.
Get yer butt back on to the locker-man's thread. You know you want to!
Apologies to Roger et al
Cheers
-John
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Nice link Roger!
Care to join us on Mission 666.
You are RB, that famous Coloradan Climber aren't you?
Q: Why are Yosemite climber so muscular and Coloradan climber so sinewy. Is that a geolgical thing?
-John
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
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On that whole thing you explained to me about the WoS debacle, everything was crystal clear except for one point. Did I understand you to say that in the final analysis the new comers were vindicated? I am not sure and knowing that would be very helpful in reading all the posts on the various WoS threads. Are you saying that they were falsely accused and misjudged in the first place or am I misunderstanding you?
Well.... the jury is still out but instead of being about 4 million to 2 against..... there is a swing to the other side. The route in question has had some people who are good climbers from this very Forum fail on it recently. So, since the route has still not been fully done a second time it is hard to tell, but this latest round of failure coupled with the incessant propaganda and head banging by the "newcomers" is getting the tide to turn.
Nutshell™™™ version:
Falsley accused and misjudged?: Probably and then some.
Vindicated? Maybe. Too early to tell.
Still pissed? For sure.
Route repeated?: Nope
Will they ever be able to put on their fuzzy PJ's with the feet again? Unknown. The kink is pretty deep in them boys.
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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Hey Johnx01, I couldn't get the link to work.
I am not from Colorado. However, you are right about why Californians look the way they do--they are glaciated.
Running a thread count up to 666 is pretty dangerous. Are you guys ready for the world wide havoc you will create?
Buzz
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Roger
Apologies, thought you were. Serves me right for believing everything I used to read in Mountain mag.
Reminds me of the first time I heard the word 'Pump'. A bunch of us weedy Brits were bouldering in the Cham Boulder, there was this huge Californian, who was busting a gut on this problem, think his name was Jeff(this was 78,79 ish). Anyway he expodes off this thing, hit the ground and said this immortal phrase
"Jeez man I've got a pump on"
God I was 20 and I was impressed!
Anyway, we adopted the phrase, come October we got back to the Uk, and I was climbing with a female friend, who I had told the story to, and after a epic struggle on some gritstone test piece, she got to the top and in a perfect Californian accent cried out
"Jeez man I've got a hard on"
Christ we laughed all winter over that on!
Cheers
-John
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Roger Breedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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That's funny, John. Like asking for a ride when you mean a lift. Do you know Ken Wilson from Mountain Mag? I haven't seen Ken in over 30 years. I found the stack of our letters back and forth when I was the Yosemite correspondent for Mountain. We were trying to decide how to report Ray Jardine's free ascents with his 'hang dog' tactics. I should try to capture it in a post.
Best, Roger
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johnx01
Trad climber
UK
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Roger
Met KW a few times. I admired and bought his mag alot, thought he had excellent standards(in the early days). Remember a joke going around at the time, think it was Pete Livesey who said that, American climbers were the best in the world but the Brits used two extra points of aid on everything -- " their feet".
I'll exit this thread now.....
Cheers
-John
If you see Lois, send her over.
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TradIsGood
Trad climber
Gunks end of country
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LEB, if you do not like my sense of humor, it is fine with me. You do not have to read my posts if you do not wish to. They are the ones that say TradIsGood on the left.
If you want to attack my character, that is ok, too. You may join a small list of folks who like to do that. You, after all, are entitled to your presumptuous opinions and may express it.
I hardly care what you think of me. But I would prefer that you do not claim to have met me, since that is obviously not true.
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Ouch!
climber
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Second Ascent of WoS
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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You know Lois,
I'm not so sure you couldn't help a lot of folks out here.
Dig,
Girlfriend,
This thread here has walloped up sumthin' quick and a lot of good, fun,
and last but not least usefull info has flowed on 'account of your unique style of inquiry.
(You got candor babe).
You could "Columbo" this WOS El Capitan 25 year bolt thing and prolly do better than all of us insiders, has beens, and newbies.
Here's the link to the latest installment, or whatever you'd call it:
http://www.supertopo.com/climbing/thread.html?topic_id=231718&f=0&b=0#msg232958
...just a suggestion.
Yours,
Tarbousier
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