Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Landgolier
climber
the flatness
|
|
Jesus, I can't believe I'm pulling my sh#t-wadin' boots on again, but...
If you look at my old posts, and the ones in this thread, I never said I thought what you guys did was anything but awesome, or that you deserved any of the BS. All I'm saying is that it's time for the schoolyard finger pointing and tattling and name calling to stop.
You are right that in the first place some guys said some untrue things about what went down. But then over the course of a gadzillion posts, we straightened that out. You and several others all deserve credit for that, and this board proved once again that it could be a great source of information and a tremendous font of interesting reading. Then when it was almost over, the whole semi-sorta-not-really-manufactured-hook-placements thing broke out (I actually came to your defense there, if you recall), and we had to have another 100k words of drama.
Now, when the dust was almost settled, here we go again. You want absolute contrition from everyone involved, a total mea culpa to validate your 25 years of personal somsarra. Sorry man, but this ain't My Name is Earl. You want to feel vindicated? Keep at it, you're banging your head against a wall you'll never climb. But you want to be past whatever suffering this has inflicted on your poor wittle heart for the last 25 years? Let it go, brother. Until you do so, you're just proving to me and everyone else that you enjoy feeling like you're the bearer of the one truth and the world is against you.
|
|
'Pass the Pitons' Pete
Big Wall climber
like Oakville, Ontario, Canada, eh?
|
|
Holy frig. Now I'm really behind in my reading!
Ricardo et al, one of the reasons I have been delaying writing my report [such as it will be] is that new stuff keeps surfacing. Now that Richard has called out Mike Corbett and Bill Russell, I kinda want to wait.
In truth, except for a few anecdotal notes about our time with Mark and Richard, and some stories of the past [which aren't hearsay] I have pretty much written in bits and pieces exactly what I found on Wings - a super-hard route with sick hooking [too hard for me] above even sicker runouts. I used a big long cheatstick to get up, because it was too hard and scary for me, and I couldn't really even toprope it, it's so hard.
More importantly, what I found was new friends in Mark and Richard, two stand-up guys - real straight shooters - who are even to this day very hurt by the hugely unfair treatment they received. I think one of the reasons they are so hurt is because they are genuinely nice guys, and wouldn't dream of treating anyone else the way they were treated.
As Tom and Randy have pointed out, and others have corroborated, it's possible that the Valley Cowards found Richard and Mark to be "easy pickin's" as victims, simply because they were - and remain - gentlemen [rants notwithstanding]
Let him rant, he feels better.
Apologies to Russ if I [HINT]ed he might be one of the villains. I believe he was not. Sorry, it was hard to remember all the names.
I promise I will do my best to write my findings - and publish them here on this very thread - within the next few days. Sorry for the delay, was caving and stuff. Mostly stuff.
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2006 - 05:41pm PT
|
PTPP writes Apologies to Russ if I [HINT]ed he might be one of the villains. I believe he was not. Sorry, it was hard to remember all the names.
I was just getting around to that... apolgy accepted.
{rant}
But.... next time you feel like going off on one of the Hardy boys adventures, have some fukking ammo and facts to back it up. Don't allude to BULLSHIIT and then drop lag time into the mix while you fuk around in some hole. Bring your shiit when you are ready and quit the pussy footing around. I'm a stand up, sarcastic, acerbic assshole (and a prick) so be ready when you launch your salvo. I don't take this shiit laying down, and we can go over any of it any way you want.... I don't do reach arounds, so be sure you are interested before you take your pants off.
{/rant}
|
|
Rankin
climber
Bishop, CA
|
|
"you guys party"
|
|
Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
|
|
Laugh my ass off at Wallings last post.
Double LMAO for his current Last Post™ - aka {rant}...
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
OK, add to the bit I said about Russ Walling that the guy does seem to have a sense of humor. Sorry if I said it strong, but I was saying what I saw. Thank you for taking it graciously (and for making me laugh).
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
So, bottom line, sounds like this route does have some merit, though it may be a very long time before someone comes along who is hungry (and tough) enough to work out the slab hooking puzzles on the apron. In fact, it may be more difficult for the next party than the first. Many of the tiny flakes and features used on the FA will be gone or weathered, making it difficult to follow the original topo. The next party will have to be somewhat flexible in their approach to hooking over several hundred yards of bare slab, and be willing to follow the features they find instead of slavishly following the topo. They'll have to have a lot of time, maybe as much as the FA. It's not destined to be popular, or coveted.
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
John you are right about one thing. Getting the sh&& scared out of you on a 25 year old route aint going to be popular...Having a hook pop on you when you are a long ways out is a truly terrifying moment. Nope, not popular, at least in the immediate future.
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
Am I wrong about the rest? (This glass looks half empty to me.)
|
|
Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand, Man.....
|
|
|
Topic Author's Reply - Aug 3, 2006 - 06:43pm PT
|
Not to dilute or drift, but I have always thought a 2nd ascent was harder than the FA. (on walls) If you really want to know why, start a new thread. Mini version is you are forced to do things where the FA is not and the FA has the option of drilling etc.
|
|
mtnyoung
Trad climber
Twain Harte, California
|
|
John Vawter. I wonder if the part in your post about "coveted" might be wrong. After all these posts, I for one would sure respect an ascent (2nd, 3rd and so forth) of the route. It sounds like an ascentionist would have something to be proud of. Maybe coveted is a word that fits.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
|
|
Russ, just when I think that you can't sink any lower in your posts, and I despair of ever connecting with you, you go and post something like that and make me laugh out loud for many minutes! Can you just pick a persona and let me get comfortable with it? Dang, man!
Landgolier, I realize that at times even scuba gear has been needed in these threads. Please realize that it is impossible to say things and draw lines that will resonate with everybody, and I DO have a long-term goal in mind. I'm not singling you out, and I do acknowledge that you have been a voice of reason on past threads. However, I simply disagree with you that "letting it go" in the sense you suggest is even RIGHT, much less "productive" or something like that.
If some think I'm whining, well, I'm not, but so be it. If some see a "persecution complex" or that I think I'm "the bearer of the one truth and the world is against [me]," then, again, so be it. It's not true, but I certainly understand how that perspective could arise. I think that some, though, like DMT are seeing something more than that. I think that what happens from here on in this saga will actually be much less about Mark and I and much more about how the climbing community is going to handle matters like this in the future. I don't mean this to sound grandiose (as I said to Teth), but somehow this whole thing did become a historical event, and I really care to see history denote that we learned something lasting from it (which we apparently didn't learn from Magic Mushroom, among other "attempts" to get it).
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
Mtnyoung, you may be right. If half of what Pete says is true, it is very hard, and hard routes are coveted. But if every party has to spend two weeks, and a few dozen falls, just crossing the apron, many qualified parties are going to say: "Do we want to spend a month on this, or would we have more fun doing the Sea, Reticent, and [insert your favorite badass route here] in the same amount of time?"
|
|
golsen
Social climber
kennewick, wa
|
|
Yeah, last time I was in Yosemite I wanted to do WoS, but instead I climbed a boulder or two. Took like 10 minutes then I was done!
Many things in life aint easy, hell, The Nose aint easy if it is your first wall and sitting in the Meadow is pretty enjoyable...
Just yankin your chain John. I do think you have a point but that can be applied to any big climbing challenge. There are always easier ways, well almost...
|
|
mooch
Big Wall climber
The Immaculate Conception
|
|
Should this have been said to Bonatti too? I'm sure he got the Italian version of it for a few decades.
DMT
As always.....a class act Dingus.
|
|
Nefarius
Big Wall climber
Fresno, CA
|
|
This last post, (john's - damn these responses are coming in quick!)as well as in general when talking to folks, just seems to portray a huge section of El Cap (as well as other places) as kinda crappy, simply because it is a slabby section. I'm not getting that. At the same time, it kinda says, "That over there is too difficult, so let's go do one of these other routes..."
Why do people insist on portraying slabby rock as crap? The only reasons I ever hear come down to it's simply too rough (difficult) for them (to be bothered with). Maybe it's just too difficult. I mean, it doesn't make sense to say I'm not into climbing that over there, as it's too difficult, instead, I'll go climb this "harder" route over here because I can climb it faster, it's what I'm used to and the falls are better...
|
|
John Vawter
Social climber
San Diego
|
|
Point taken. I'll have to admit I'm making a value judgment. The route doesn't appeal to me because the business part of it is on a slab, and I tend to favor steep routes with thin nailing. There also the diminishing returns problem of having to spend so much time on trial and error just to connect the dots.
Chouinard said of Arch Rock: "The climbing as a whole is not very esthetic or enjoyable; it is merely difficult." I think the climbing at Arch Rock is esthetic and enjoyable. It's a matter of personal taste.
|
|
NeverSurfaced
Trad climber
Someplace F*#ked!
|
|
I’m not versed in the history of WoS, so for me this is all new and, truth be told, very interesting. Best thread that I’ve possibly read on this site, primarily from a sociological stand point. I’m a noob and therefore have nothing to add; if it makes anyone feel better though, I took a shite at the office earlier which was so grandiose that I couldn’t bring myself to flush it. Moments later my boss wondered in and unwittingly caught a glimpse of my handy-work. The look on his face was priceless. I acknowledged the fact that it was indeed my sh#t. We’ve since reconciled and moved on.
|
|
Matt
Trad climber
places you shouldn't talk about in polite company
|
|
so here is a question for those with enough years in the game to have perspective (which i could probably answer if i read the other 500+ posts on WOS, but i haven't, so here goes):
at the time this route went up, were there other routes on el cap or elsewhere in the valley that pushed up relatively featureless rock, relying primarily or entirely on bolts for protection, anchors, etc?
i am just a little curious about what the culture of cutting edge big wall climbing was at that time. it seems like the current focus on the discussion of this climb has become centered around whether or not it was bold or hard, and apparently it is both (that sentence was edited+corrected- thanks N). my question is simply this, was that the issue, way back then?
now in 2006 we have sport craggs and cordless drills, bolts are everywhere, and the valley itself is like an anachronism, in a way, a place where the ethics have been slower to change, and where local and concerned climbers have long fought against that change.
so regardless of how run out those pitches might be, was this climb still a significant varaition from what was going on in yosemite up until that time, or not?
were there other climbs that used similar #s of holes per pitch, and across a similar # of pitches as this route does? wasn't there some comment in some thread relating to ed leeper, where a new route someone wanted to but hardware for at the needles using (only) several bolts per pitch, including anchors, was viewed as too many, and the bolts were not sold?
i guess i am asking if everything pete has said about this route can truthfully be the case (and then some), and still the fact that it was pushed up the middle of a featureless slab for a thousand feet or two might have in itself been enough of a break from the accepted footprint or impact such that "people" were unimpressed (or upset) w/ the line itself?
to be clear, i am not saying that's the case, i'm asking if it might be? and i am noticing that the judgement is being revisited w/ 21st century eyes, which seems, well- potentially invalid, at least to me.
|
|
madbolter1
Big Wall climber
Walla Walla, WA
|
|
Ah, yes. Your reconciliation story was touching--I was moved to tears. I'm also really impressed that you both had the ability to just get over it and move on. The whole thing... it's... just... sniff... wonderful.
But would you have acknowledged your handiwork if you had instead cut the legs off of his desk, sabotaged his chair and computer, sent him repeated threatening emails that his car was about to be blown up, had some thugs come to corner him in the hallway, and THEN deposited and smeared your "grandiose handiwork" throughout a folder of his important documents? The look on his face after hearing THAT confession would be priceless indeed! I would like to be there to see that look. :-)
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!