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Trad Larry
Gym climber
Black Canyon, Colorado
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Nov 19, 2013 - 11:49pm PT
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get over your fear of bolts. it's just a tiny piece of metal in a piece of rock.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 20, 2013 - 12:07am PT
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JB, I was gonna say the same thing about Jo- berg or add Eldorado. If you're a real stud you put
a mine in halfway upthe N Face of Jo-berg.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
From Panorama City, CA
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 20, 2013 - 12:28am PT
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It's funny to think how the NPS filled in the bolt holes in the midst of such deteriorating choss. MT, I like your tastes. Below; Forbidden
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Charlie D.
Trad climber
Western Slope, Tahoe Sierra
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Nov 20, 2013 - 09:15am PT
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Tragic, RIP Tyler Burton. Regardless of how you may rationalize the action as anyone of the rangers involved, I wouldn't wish their now haunting decisions on anyone. It's a life sentence for all involved, what a bummer. The family and friends of Tyler are paying the heaviest of the sentences, hope they can find a place to move on.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Nov 20, 2013 - 10:11am PT
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ditto Charlie^^^ RIP Tyler. Very sad to read this story. My heart goes out to his family and friends. The park rangers are probably in their own personal hell of regret and emotions. There may be a climber out there who kicked the actual block loose dealing with issues as well.
This was a terrible accident with very unfortunate timing in regards to the the actions by the rangers. I'm not familiar with the route but my husband has climbed it. It sounds like the upper rap anchor was chopped within days of it getting put in so I don't really think there was an expectation of being able to use it. Tyler had likely planned his descent regardless. The new anchor may have prevented him from being in the line of fire once the fatal rock was kicked loose, but we don't know if he would have even used that anchor. The temperament of that particular gully is well known and I think, we, as climbers, have to accept these risks.
The lower anchor at the horn sounds very necessary given the loose block and (from the husbands account) a total lack of alternate egress. Sounds like that one should be replaced. Edit to add: that one's definitely a ticking timebomb of death+ massive lawsuit at this point.
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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Nov 20, 2013 - 10:18am PT
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hey there say, studly... me too...
just sad to hear when things go wrong... :(
for any of the reasons...
hope that the various shares here, help folks, in
whatever areas possible...
*my condolences to the family of tyler--i just saw the name posted...
prayers for you future, as you continue on without him... :(
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smith curry
climber
nashville,TN
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Nov 20, 2013 - 11:25am PT
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I climbed it last year with a friend---We were fortunate to have the mountain to ourselves that day, but on the hike out we ran into many climbers that were part of large guided groups preparing for an assault the next day. How about NPS saying "no" to large commercial guide companies in such an sensitive area as Boston Basin?
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ArmandoWyo
climber
Wyoming
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Nov 20, 2013 - 01:04pm PT
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A thoughtful discussion by Jeff Jackson. My conclusion: this death was avoidable, and would not have occurred if an overbearing NP Ranger had not taken it on herself to chop a line of rappel bolts placed to create a safe descent.
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apogee
climber
Technically expert, safe belayer, can lead if easy
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Nov 20, 2013 - 01:06pm PT
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^^^Spoken like a true lawyer, Armando.
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Happydraggin'
climber
PHX
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Nov 20, 2013 - 01:36pm PT
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My recollection is that simul-climbing the WR is a good warm up for soloing the traditional decsent which is a pretty long traverse on mostly solid but quite grassy granite ledges with some amount of exposure. I do seem to recall climbing around some snow early on and stemming a nasty, wet, mud-filled gully to regain the ridge before the final portion of the "hike" but agree with others that most of the webbing we saw up there made virtually no sense and amounted to little more than litter (think Matthes Crest). That said, I am no hard man and fully support anything within reason (even within desigated Wilderness) to make descents safer. I don't know that the WR is a good or necessary candidate although there are many other more accessible and popular moderates (think West Crack on Daff Dome) that deserve approriate attention to address what are some "memeorable" -- at least for this old guy -- walk-offs.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2013 - 01:56pm PT
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I agree with Ron Anderson.
On chossy Cascade mountains the odds of an accident are high because of the loose nature of the rock.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2013 - 03:29pm PT
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Hey Bruce Kay,
Nicely argued and worded post.
You are right about the problem, which is that in 2013, these once-rarely-climbed mountains are now ascended by ever larger numbers.
I'm not sure I agree about the obvious solution being adding a bolted rappel route.
Why? Because:
The ranger in question stated (upthread, somewhere) that in this case, with bolted anchor removed, the pull on the rope was the same.
Which suggests that this accident would have occurred had the bolts been in.
In which case the person who placed the bolts in question would be the one who might feel, rightly or wrongly, somewhat to blame. (EDIT: After reading the article more closely, it's apparent that the bolts in questions were nowhere near the site of the rappel where the accident happened.)
And the thread title, hypothetically, could have been "Placing bolts lead to death on Forbidden Peak"
I served on the Eldorado Canyon Fixed Hardware Committee for a decade. In that time, the subject of bolting a popular rappel route, the one down the Dirty Deed chimney, the descent from Yellow Spur and nearby routes, came up several times.
We discussed this at great length. Voices were raised. There were obvious plusses: existing raps were from trees, we could direct the rappel line out of the chimney, somewhat.
But we could also see potential problems. There'd be more crowding in this already busy area (several folks have died/been injured/evacuated in and under this area from falling rocks). One or two of the proposed new stances were very small, no room for multiple parties. And how long to make the rappels? Thirty meters gave a better set of stances and locations, but anyone with a shorter rope would be screwed. And the pulled rope would still tend to go into the chimney, especially on a windy day.The kicker was that if we condoned and placed this rap route and then someone using it died, we could be blamed. Or at least feel responsible. Which would be awful. I had no strong feelings, I think I may have voted for it, in fact. But it never did get voted in.
My point is that, as Ron says, there are risks inherent in mountaineering. If we interfere with the status quo, even with the best of intentions, we are responsible for the results, which may not be what we expected.
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ontheedgeandscaredtodeath
Social climber
SLO, Ca
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Nov 20, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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Seems to me they should move the descent out of the bowling alley, regardless of what caused this accident.
The days of of getting on classics in national parks without anyone else around are over aside from the occasional lucky outing.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2013 - 03:56pm PT
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" a buncha meddling rangers and supes," say I.
Authorititty always wins.
but there is the dictum and the song, too, which states, "Women are always right."
WTF, LOL, RIP.
Ban bolts completely or shut the hell up, Smokey.
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Nov 20, 2013 - 04:01pm PT
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Crusher, your concerns about Eldo are based off the responsibility borne by having created a committee to oversee practices beyond the expertise of the State Park management, and are realistic.
In this case no such committee exists. This is more of an issue of establishing an appropriate balance between the Wilderness and safety policies in the NCNP and clarifying with rules that reflect the level of use the area receives.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Nov 20, 2013 - 04:07pm PT
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Kinda telling that so many are concerned about a tree on this site, but not a human life.
The NPS rangers need to be sued. They had a personal agenda that got a climber killed.
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mouse from merced
Trad climber
The finger of fate, my friends, is fickle.
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Nov 20, 2013 - 04:09pm PT
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Todd, that's exactly right. Committitty authorititty. Every time.
Patirck, that's exackly right, too.
Maybe they should dictate that it is truly "Forbidden Peak," establish a nice touristy parking lot for viewing, and put out some more signs.
NO FUN. NO ADVENTURE. TOO RISKY.
--Aunt Sam
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Nov 20, 2013 - 04:45pm PT
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Crusher, your concerns about Eldo are based off the responsibility borne by having created a committee to oversee practices beyond the expertise of the State Park management, and are realistic.
In this case no such committee exists. This is more of an issue of establishing an appropriate balance between the Wilderness and safety policies in the NCNP and clarifying with rules that reflect the level of use the area receives.
Yeah. Agree. I don't know what the rappel possibilities are on Forbidden. Maybe there is a viable, clean, rap line somewhere, a la the rap route from Mammoth Terrace.
It might be a good idea for the main guiding outfits who guide Forbidden Peak (there's a bunch of them) to form a committee of their own to work out what is best to do. It'd be in their own interests, they don't want clients dying.
The NPS prefers to deal with groups of like-minded representatives of a user group. They are generally pretty suspicious of individuals who take unilateral actions--as in this instance.
Committees suck but this is just the kind of climbing issue that could benefit from such a local climbing community-based consensus.
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Reilly
Mountain climber
The Other Monrovia- CA
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Nov 20, 2013 - 06:07pm PT
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I don't know what the rappel possibilities are on Forbidden .
Well, I can tell ya what they used to be and it didn't involve bolts or the
phukking Park Service telling you what for. You did just what you needed to
do. A few bolts here and there woulda been nice but we were too cheap, in
too big of a hurry, and highly disinclined to carry some heavyassed bolt kit.
Now I have put in a few on lead where I knew there no cracks but those were
very few and far between and I ain't tellin' since there's prolly no statute
of limitations as far as the Park Service is concerned. It's like murder, right?
By the way isn't the Park Service like that dude in high school, you know,
the one with the IQ of 70, who gets a job with the road crew wielding the
'STOP' sign? And then he becomes an authority on driving, the law, and human
psychology?
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