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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:10am PT
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I just got an email from sender one and it said offering an "off the wall" class. I got stoked and it was like they read out minds to make a course for this stuff. But then when I opened it I saw that it was $80 to teach you how do use a hang board and other crap.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 22, 2013 - 10:21am PT
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We probably can't do much to educate rednecks, but we can start with our own climbing community.
Ethics become an issue when that little kid from the gym grows up to be an adult who climbs/hikes/bikes outdoors and perhaps becomes a sponsored athlete or route developer one day. Ethics-debates between traditionally trained climbers and new/gym trained climbers are as regular as the tide so those lines are crossed all the time. Why not try to bridge the gap?
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:03am PT
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Fine idea, just as long as the tar-and-feather crowd on this hallowed site isn't involved.
The hyberbole and anger directed at JK is NOT a way to teach a lesson. Like Fire and Brimstone preaching, kids tune it out.
And what is meant by 'traditionally trained' climbers? Kids coming out of the gym overwhelming want to boulder.
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PSP also PP
Trad climber
Berkeley
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:30am PT
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He killed a bee hive too. This guy is little too stoked! A Good unstoking activity is picking up trash on the side of a highway with an orange suit on.
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Deekaid
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:31am PT
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p.c P.C.
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Cragar
Trad climber
MSLA - MT
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Oct 22, 2013 - 11:56am PT
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Great thread, or at least the intention.
Sketch(very familiar sounding name!) writes:
"Even if rednecks are worse, this doesn't excuse bad behavior by climbers. We all need to be responsible for the outdoors."
Yes, all of us. Pat, there is no reason to create a divide. Why even go there?? Leave that to partisan hacks will ya! :^) Plus, rednecks are just folks that work outside.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 22, 2013 - 12:29pm PT
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The point I am making is that because someone is from a city and spends time climbing in a gym, doesn't automatically mean they are going to trash the outdoors when they get there.
Look at the upper-middle class, suburban trustifarian makeup of the average NOLS or Outward bound for evidence of responsible leave-no-trace ethics.
Conversely, go to an Indian Rez or Redneck bum-fukistan if you want to see roadside oil change spills, cases or beer cans, huge firepits with burned plastic and aluminum foil, 'muddin' all over god and creation with huge trucks, 4 wheeler 'fun', more beer cans, shell casings...
... and I have been to many redneck party sites with young trees cut 3' high from drunken ax games.
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Tfish
Trad climber
La Crescenta, CA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 12:52pm PT
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It's not just leave no trace and all that stuff. Another huge problem is people not knowing basic stuff about climbing. I've never seen any gym teach people how to rap, clean anchors, or anything like that.
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justthemaid
climber
Jim Henson's Basement
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:27pm PT
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The hyberbole and anger directed at JK is NOT a way to teach a lesson. Like Fire and Brimstone preaching, kids tune it out.
I can't agree more. There's ways to get people involved without making it a preachy sermon. You can't force people to participate, but you can encourage them to. Doing nothing certainly isn't in the interest of progress.
And what is meant by 'traditionally trained' climbers?
Without getting into a full paragraph description... I was just painting a very broad descriptive stroke over all climbers that were introduced to climbing outdoors, not the gym. Sorry if it was confusing.
Kids coming out of the gym overwhelming want to boulder.
So?? Boulderers, climbers, what's the difference? If you are climbing outdoors you are creating an impact. Edit for brevity.
I agree with the point that not all gym-climbers are wrecking the environment..there is just a greater likelyhood that they are going to make mistakes because they have been denied basic information.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:29pm PT
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Some gyms do teach outdoor climbing and stewardship /JTM
In JT at restoration projects run by the NPS, you see trips organized by the gyms themselves to encourage participation by their patrons. Such things go a long way to relieve the generation gap.
The old generation? Featured a solitary figure talking to a rock. Me human. You rock.
The new generation? Features ten kids hassling each other with rocks somewhere in the vicinity.
This is a heck of a gap and we need to get on with bridging it. Restoration projects are a promising start.
As to the tree
Now that the two income family has become the norm, children are raised mainly by other children. This has to be continued in cases where old children act up. This is unpleasant and it is a new social interaction. But it seems to be necessary. The crux is perhaps that of learning to carry out a correction divorced from emotion. State your objection calmly and positively, then move along. Never expect conversion.
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patrick compton
Trad climber
van
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:38pm PT
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So?? Boulderers, climbers, what's the difference?
I took 'traditionally trained' to mean teaching the ethics of trad climbing to boudlerers.
yes, bouldering can have a big impact. Esp since it is done at eye level.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:41pm PT
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It is shocking when people post trip reports complete with pictures that show their complete disregard for the land manager's regulations and the environment. When folks are called out for it, they use advanced deflection techniques. We have a recent discussion about folks building a fire in the mouth of the Monkey - a day use area where camping and fires are forbidden. In the local community, some people excuse this behavior since they are strong climbers.
In this celebrity crazed world, your local hero and your national hero are closely watched and receive special privileges. Those that sign up to sponsor these talented people should provide very clear guidance about their expectations for behavior and be willing to cut the cord when their informed athletes violate those principals no matter how it enhances the photo shoot, video, etc. The media needs to understand what is can or can not do to capture these moments. Whoever is paying for that visual should also be held accountable for their actions.
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Toker Villain
Big Wall climber
Toquerville, Utah
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Oct 22, 2013 - 01:54pm PT
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Isn't it nice to have somebody to throw stones at?
It sure makes you feel better about yourself.
Now you can go back to Indian Creek and feel smug and sanctimonious as you ever so slowly round out the crack edges, widen the jams and pod out the placements,..
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Todd Eastman
climber
Bellingham, WA
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Oct 22, 2013 - 02:09pm PT
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Isn't it nice to have somebody to throw stones at?
It sure makes you feel better about yourself.
Now you can go back to Indian Creek and feel smug and sanctimonious as you ever so slowly round out the crack edges, widen the jams and pod out the placements,..
No, actually knowing that there are clear impacts from even the best intentioned climbers, making even small attempts to lower our individual impacts would seem reasonable thing to do.
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jstan
climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 02:16pm PT
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Isn't it nice to have somebody to throw stones at?
It sure makes you feel better about yourself. T/V
Ron finds it unpleasant to see one kid correcting a third. As I suggested above,
these are new social interactions and they will sometimes make us feel uncomfortable.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:35pm PT
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"we are flawed, we are human, bla bla bla" That's old news. I grew up in a different era, where leave no trace was well established and known. I have never had the opportunity to scar or do irreversible harm outside of my footprints and hand prints. I have put up a handful or routes (all super lame and easy) and I have gardened inadvertently while simply trying to ascend and I have pulled off rock and thrown it down, never on a scale I would call trundling. In this respect I feel my climbing remains pure, I have not done any of these things, but yes I am human and not perfect. BUT, if I do someday preform any offensive or non-ethical cleaning activity, it will be while knowing it was wrong. Not because I accidentally, opps, am a human. I do like your article, but I have to disagree with it's entire point. For one thing, this is inexcusable, as it would be for myself as well. We require higher standards, if in your opinion, that is the problem.
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squishy
Mountain climber
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:36pm PT
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Way back in 2005 this was written about the guy.
Yo,
Did anyone read the interview in R&I last month about Joe Kinder? What kind of trash are they producing and furthermore, who cares what this white Ebonics loving, hip hop wannabe says or does?
Call me out, tell me I am hating but seriously, this guy is an idiot. First let me start by saying that he comes from a totally white, upper middle class background, has a college education, and never used to talk like he was best friends with flava flav. Second, besides clipping some bolts, what has this guy done to improve the climbing community or bring what we all have to others. What he represents is what is wrong with american youth today. I understand that people may choose to act however they like. I understand that it's cool to have your own style or to be different in our sport but he misrepresents what climbing is about, what he is about, and further, if he could only stand back and see himself acting like this from a distance he would be embarrassed. What gives Joe?
You say it's, "Lexus Time," yet you drive a Corolla and half of those dirty hippies in their VW's, eating organic food, would scare the living sh#t out of you on most 5.10 gear routes. You say that some, "sucka touron," backed into you at the park a while back? What makes you any different from every other "touron" who has moved to Boulder to enjoy the beautiful people? Go back to NH dude. Please let me know how, "speed and style," are the factors that matter anymore? Are you doing speed ascents of boulders in the park or something? That's really awesome Joe. When people mention speed in climbing they are usually referring to "real routes" on real mountains - Not some pile of sh#t boulder judiciously cleaned to the hilt and worked on for 2 years. Go climb a real route tough guy. And what is "style?" Does that mean you speak in Ebonics, swill shitty beer, smoke weed in your Corolla on the way to the crag? Get a life you burn out. Did you break the, "stigma" when you placed a single bolt between two 14's and called it the hardest route at Rumney? Classic big guy! It might take dedication to send 14b (40 feet worth) but two f*#king years on a boulder problem is really pretty sad. You could have spent two years throwing down on gear routes and probably made a name that way in better, "style." You mention giving back to climbing by throwing kids camps and sh#t? Are you going to teach your poor style of speaking and puffing to kids who just want to climb? Why haven't you already done it. That is what really separates the bros from the hoes as you say.
All I am saying is maybe it's time to grow up some huh? Maybe use your super human psyche and strength to do more than talk trash and sound like an idiot doing it. You parents would think it is pathetic as many of us do. It's one thing to have your own style. It's totally another style to think you are from some hood in a gang and pimpin'. You are so far from real pimping that hoes would not even take you seriously.
Stop the drugs. Start climbing real routes taller than ten feet. Stop trying to be black and grow the f*#k up. You will be happy when it is said and done.
As for R&I - stop giving press to these dickheads. Why would you even print that garbage or even allow the question, "Why are men so much better than women." Come on. You can't do better than that? There are people actually doing sh#t out in the real world beyond the spot in Boulder.
Time to go climb a 5.6 and be happy for what it is.
Yours Truly Yo,
Thad Livingston
Tuscon, Arizona
Yes, I met you at Rumney once when you were green as they come.
And DMT said "Who's Joe Kinder?" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Oct 22, 2013 - 03:41pm PT
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Squishy
Was the era you grew up in the one where they dumped fire off glacier point, or the one with the carving of Mount Rushmore?
I hear bikini atoll is recovering well, the fish are down to just 3 eyes ;)
I agree that there are clear cut black and white lines, like chipping and hacking junipers, but that is in our tight circle. I'm sure botanists hiking the hidden valley nature loop are a bit put off by the chalk on sports challenge that we see as 'white'.'
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