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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:53pm PT
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RE:
"You don't seem to understand the statistics "argument" khanom. I'm not talking about climbing stats., or stats. for soloing. Simply stated, over time, especially a long period of time, stuff tends to happen"
that's not statistics, it's the law of averages, probability.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 30, 2007 - 11:54pm PT
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wbw
No, it's not luck.
It's destiny .......
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:01am PT
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Werner, I allow for the possibility that it might be destiny, and not luck.
I also stand corrected in my use of terms. Thanks Raydog. It is probability, and not statistics that I have been spewing about. As a high school math teacher, I deserve extreme torture for such an error. Guess I've been on summer vacation for too long.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:04am PT
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RE:
"I deserve extreme torture for such an error."
easy to get those confused :)
example: the longer one drives a car the greater the probability one has of being in an accident, etc.
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WBraun
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:07am PT
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Now Derek Hersey was free soloing the Steck Salathe after a good rainstorm the day before and that could have contributed to make a crucial foot smear on the headwall pitch more slippery.
We speculated that's were he fell.
When me and Shipley free soloed it a few years ago we both thought that could be the spot because it was right in the fall line where his body was recovered.
Yes, only a speculation, but a highly probable place to slip.
None of us really know what can happen. I've almost knocked myself out of the crack accidentally due to my knee hitting my elbow as I was moving up rapidly.
It's very dangerous thing to free solo. I don't recommend it to anyone.
I have all the respect to those that don't free solo for the reasons that they believe it's crazy and/or unsafe.
Free soloing is just an area where some of us just go and others will not.
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Raydog
Trad climber
Boulder Colorado
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:13am PT
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soloing is an integral and important part of climbing (as a whole)
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ng
Trad climber
New Mexico
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:52am PT
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Matt-
Stolby - the town featured in your link - wow! Whole town & all ages soloing mutlipitch 5.9s.
the climbing was impressive and ballsy; good social commentary on the isolationist effects of a totalitarian political system. Great little documentary.
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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Jul 31, 2007 - 12:53am PT
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Freesoloing is very similar to driving a car, the difference being the range of diffculties.
When you are driving down the road, it's just you and a twist of the wheel between you and death. The objective hazards are the cars coming the other direction, some drunk, stoned, or on their cell phones texting, passing just 10 feet away. The combined speed of cars going both ways is often well over 100 mph.
So how dangerous soloing can be is a function of skill and experience making the action as routine as driving a car, plus the total of objective hazards.
Werner's right, it's just destiny that writes what really happens. Yabo shoots himself, Wolfgang gets killed on the road and Bachar breaks his neck that way too. Mikey gets swept out to sea and Walt drowns Kayaking. These guys were doing really dangerous climbs but the climbs couldn't touch them.
Peace
Karl
edit
"With all due respect, there are many climbers that have fallen to their deaths while free-soloing; some of which were exceedingly good at their craft."
I'd like a definition of "many"
I'd assert that Himalayan Mountaineering is at least 10 times more dangerous than free soloing rock, maybe 20 times.
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Maysho
climber
Truckee, CA
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Jul 31, 2007 - 08:56am PT
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I have had some of my richest climbing experiences while soloing. The threads I wove from those "risky" experiences, make up the rope that backs me up today and everyday, so of course I would say those risks were worth it.
I am uncomfortable with the relationship between soloing and the media. In the old days, hearing about Charlie on the DNB, or Ron on the North Buttress, or Croft on Astroman, as a word of mouth, spreading through the lot and the lodge kind of thing, I felt like I was hearing tell of someones personal vision quest, an inspiration. Though today's images and videos are inspiring or terrifying, I am bugged by the staging, the-going back-the-next-day-to-pose trend. Or the probability of media as a motivation. If Dean had quietly soloed Delicate Arch, because he was drawn by the line, and we heard rumor of it, it still would have been somewhat inspiring. As it was a pre-rehearsed, media rigged stunt, it fell to the level of anti-community poor taste.
I spent a morning with a guy whose girlfriend had recently died soloing a 10a hand crack in Canyonlands. I was affected by his grief and reflected on the Patagonia adds of Steph on the same climb that had possibly inspired her. Soloing in "real life", there is no photographer to ask for rope if the crack turns out to have some sand in it.
Destiny, luck, influence, these issues are too complex to simplistically blame the media, I'm just saying this trend of soloing and being photographed as a career move bothers me, and the resulting media does not add to the sport in my opinion.
Peter
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Matt
Trad climber
always on the lookout for ed's 5.10 OW van
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Jul 31, 2007 - 01:11pm PT
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that is a great post peter, well said.
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rick d
Social climber
tucson, az
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Jul 31, 2007 - 04:56pm PT
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stoby guy was a puss and his legs were weak.
soloing is a private matter and best done as such. Those who degrade it should stfu and go back to their armchair or the geritol sport routes. What was so well said is that alpine, ice, or any hard core mountaineering is 1,000 x more hazardous.
rick d
"the gimp- i've done an 80' grounder and laughed"
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Brian
climber
Cali
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Jul 31, 2007 - 05:30pm PT
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This is getting funny. Maybe it is worth beating a dead horse.
(1) How, exactly, does one determine that alpine climbing or ice climbing is 2, 100, or 1000 times as dangerous as soloing? Exactly what danger meter are you using to measure the danger, and how has it been calibrated?
(2) What to all you folks mean by "chance"? Read Aristotle's Physics. You need to distinguish between "without a cause" and "contrary to expectation." However, in either case, there is clearly an element of "chance" (i.e., something happening contrary to expectation, but with a cause) involved with soloing, as there is with all climbing. No amount of experience, observation, or hand-wringing will tell you if some block 10 pitches above your head is going to fall.
The funny part of the thread is when folks jump on other folks' posts for being vague with language, and do so in an equally vague way.
Soloing is dangerous. Rock climbing, ice climbing, mixed climbing, alpine climbing, big wall climbing (all of which I do) are also dangerous. Danger is part of what makes it attractive.
Who was it who noted that if you take away the danger, climbing is just like Disneyland?
Brian
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CAMNOTCLIMB
Trad climber
novato ca
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Jul 31, 2007 - 06:34pm PT
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Love to solo, back in the day. I always kept well within my limits. My best solos are the climbs that I walked away from because something didn't feel right. If I was not 100% I would skip soloing for the day and find a partner and climb something else.
The rewards are worth the risk.
Brian
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pyro
Big Wall climber
Ventura
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Jul 31, 2007 - 10:01pm PT
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I was the leader in charge of anastasia ojai "epic". there was three of us.
she showed me no communication or she could have asked me or Ramon to put a belay on!
also if you read the guide book it's much safe to hike than to rap down the black-wall.
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Peter Haan
Trad climber
San Francisco, CA
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:15pm PT
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I really agree with Maysho/Peter Mayfield. As one of the original free soloists, it is clear to me that what you experience while climbing hard unroped, is just incredible, frankly. The experience is so rich, after all those many years of work and practice, some of us can’t resist then reaching towards this place: just climbing with nothing, really sharp, as in a perfect dance. All the terrible factors are clear, in fact clearer than to those who post in outrage. It is a radical act, not another day on the rock. Soloing unroped is so personal that coming back to camp is almost embarrassing.
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john hansen
climber
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Jul 31, 2007 - 11:38pm PT
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Your last sentence nails it Peter.
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aldude
climber
Monument Manor
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Remember to double check your mental toprope !!
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Doug Hemken
climber
Madison, WI
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You get what you pay for.
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wbw
climber
'cross the great divide
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Yes, that last line of Peter Haan's post is very eloquent, although I haven't noticed anyone posting in outrage. Also, as a person who has soloed in the past for some of the same reasons stated on this thread, and may in the future, I'm not sure that I think soloists understand the potential consequences better than climbers that choose not to solo.
In addition to having experienced that unique feeling of completing a beautiful route without the hindrance of gear and partner, I've witnessed soloing that was inspirational. Many years ago I was climbing at Arch Rock, and saw Werner soloing on what appeared to be a circuit he was climbing. One would have thought that gravity had no effect on him at all; so fast and fluid.
I was only pointing out that nobody believes they will fall before choosing to solo a route: if they did that would be . . . suicide. My previous view held many years ago that there was something inherent in soloing that made me less likely to fall, than when I was climbing roped, changed the die my friend died soloing the Steck-Salathe.
Here's to hoping that on those days when everything feels right, and we make the decision to trust only our own skill and judgement leaving the gear and partner behind, we've made the right decision.
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