Thoughts on Haul Lines (Static vs. Dynamic)

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golsen

Social climber

kennewick, wa

May 21, 2013 - 03:22pm PT

Don,

that means that the spare line is pretty much following the main line. In the event of a rockfall....Hopefully you get the picture. Lambone is right in that prevention is obviously the best course of action.

Fat Dad

Trad climber

Los Angeles, CA

May 21, 2013 - 03:23pm PT

I'm with Levy. I've always had a dynamic haul line and, whenever I get to do a wall again, will do the same. I can deal with replacing a haul line after several walls, or sooner if needed. I fancy my life is worth a couple C notes. I'd feel pretty hosed if I get a core shot (which I have gotten) and don't have a back up line.

Also, I'd encourage folks from passing judgment on the Muir accident. Weird, I agree, but as everyone who has done a wall knows, weird sh#t happens all the time. Most of the time you get a chance to correct before it goes all to hell. Clearly, some folks do not get that opportunity.

Nilepoc

Big Wall climber

May 21, 2013 - 03:23pm PT

Repost of my earlier question.

Since we are talking about the force of a fall on a static line. How severe was the impact on the anchor in the fall last weekend? Would an anchor be at risk in such a scenario?

JEleazarian

Trad climber

Fresno CA

May 21, 2013 - 03:26pm PT

In 45 years of climbing, I've never core-shot my lead rope, but when I'd been climbing only a year, I saw another party do that to their lead rope on the Regular Route of the Northwest Face of Half Dome. Ever since, I've always hauled with a dynamic ropes on walls as a sort of backup. The other advantage of having two ropes with the same stretch characteristics came if we retreated (a very common occurrence if I was doing most of the leading!).

Frankly, having started with Goldline, the advantage of static rope for hauling always seemed rather minimal, compared with the advantage of any kernmantle rope over a laid rope.

John

PSP also PP

Trad climber

Berkeley

May 21, 2013 - 03:31pm PT

150 lbs at 32 feet per sec. per sec. for 150 feet with almost an instantaneous stop on static. any physics guys out there?

Lambone

Big Wall climber

Ashland, Or

May 21, 2013 - 03:31pm PT

Would an anchor be at risk in such a scenario?

Biners could easily be broken...and would probably fail before the bolts.

As far as I can tell, there have only ever been 3 deaths on El Cap due to a cut lead rope (where the leader died).

From Clint's site:
http://www.stanford.edu/~clint/yos/elcapd.txt

2 - Robert Dietmar Kuhn, 1988 (ANAM 1989). Was leading Pancake
Flake, when he pulled off a 3' loose block. It cut his
rope and he fell to the ground.

11. Matt Baxter, Zenyata Mondata, 4/1/1996.
Rope cut on a flake during a leader fall on pitch 3.
Fell 300' to ground.

and Mason.

So run the statistics against the number of climbers that have summited El Cap...

Sure you can climb with two ropes to reduce your risk of getting the chop. You could also just quit climbing...

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

May 21, 2013 - 03:35pm PT

At the same time a careful leader on even the most gnarly terrain has the ability to prevent core shots.

This comment deserves some attention. And it's not just careful slinging and such that can prevent core shots. Sometimes its just better to rope solo the pitch, even with a partner available to belay, because you can do lots of things (e.g. re-belays off pieces within the pitch) that you can't do while climbing conventionally, that will keep your cord running clean.

That doesn't solve falling blocks, but if you have a pitch that wanders all over the place with lots of overlaps, rooflets, corners, flakes, etc, it will both eliminate rope drag and reduce the potential of cutting your lead line on one of the sharp edges in a fall.

Lambone

Big Wall climber

Ashland, Or

May 21, 2013 - 03:41pm PT

I guess that's another advantage of climbing in a team of 3. Two lead ropes.

Gunkie

Trad climber

East Coast US

May 21, 2013 - 03:43pm PT

So run the statistics against the number of climbers that have summited El Cap...

Interesting, I wonder what that number is. How many climbers have summitted an El Cap wall route? Maybe figure the Nose gets 300 people to the top each year? Maybe 2x that number for all other El Cap wall routes combined per year. Maybe we're seeing around 1000 climbers summitting an El Cap wall route each year, including repeats. Let's say that pace was maintained over the last 20 years.... 20k, and maybe 20k in all of the time prior to that. Maybe 40k climbers have summitted an El Cap wall route. I suspect the number is a bit south of there. I'd be comfortable with 30k-ish.

24 fatalities over the years on El Cap wall routes.

Back of the envelope calculation... about a 1/1000 chance of getting the chop on an El Cap wall route?

[EDIT] However, how many parties start up and then retreat? I bet that number is pretty high (it is for me) and should count in the stats. I suspect start-to-success ratio is around 3:1 (4:1 for me). the odds of getting the chop on an El Cap wall route drops to about 1/10000.

Lambone

Big Wall climber

Ashland, Or

May 21, 2013 - 03:45pm PT

There ya go.

Now figure the number of close calls... ;)

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

May 21, 2013 - 03:46pm PT

Quick and dirty on the physics:

72kg climber, 60m fall, onto a static with 2% elongation = ~35kN impact force onto the anchor. Doesn't change for 70m.

We do not know what Mason did and for what reason

Coz, we have the first hand account from his partner. So we do know what he did. Why he chose that particular method is an open question.

WBraun

climber

May 21, 2013 - 03:49pm PT

Good grief.

How do you people even go climbing being so paranoid?

Elcapinyoazz

Social climber

Joshua Tree

May 21, 2013 - 03:54pm PT

whenever I get to do a wall again

How you gonna do that Fats? I was there in Camp4 about 5 years ago when you were selling off your pin rack and hooks...unless I have you confused with someone else.

Selling your rack to take the wife and kids to fancy dinner = No walls ever again, because you are fully domesticated brah.

climber

May 21, 2013 - 03:58pm PT

'used to bring a dynamic lead rope as a haul line into the backcountry in case of a core shot. 'needed it once. We had to b-fly one of our two lead ropes and just jug on it because of a core shot on the WEML, BITD.

Who volunteers to fall the full length dynamic or not onto your haul loop?

Unfortunate incident, condolences to all involved.

I guided the Nose on a duct taped line, the client wasn't too happy and I change my practice after that.

LOL, first impressions are everything!

GhoulweJ

Trad climber

El Dorado Hills, CA

May 21, 2013 - 03:59pm PT

Nothing in this event has made want to change my wall system.

benzo

Big Wall climber

tacoma wa.

Topic Author's Reply - May 21, 2013 - 04:00pm PT

just a side note here, masons accident is wholey what put this topic on my mind last night, but i want reiterate that critiquing his climbing methods and the details of that particular accident isnt the threads intention. I think in time that discussion will come. Respectfully.

My hope was to broaden the thought proccess of our sport. thanks for the input thus far.

rgold

Trad climber

Poughkeepsie, NY

May 21, 2013 - 04:13pm PT

Good grief.

How do you people even go climbing being so paranoid?

...which reminds me of the old joke:

Just because I'm paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get me.

Well, nature isn't out to get us. But nature doesn't care about us either.
So I think the trick in climbing is to turn on the paranoia, guard against whatever you can, then turn off the paranoia and do what has to be done (enjoying things in the process), then turn on the paranoia...etc.