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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Stop trying to impress with endless categorizing. Its not working.
That's an awfully grouchy line from a guy who is usually pretty constructive! I'm also unsure as to whom the arrow was slung, so I'll take it the target is all of us? The thread was apparently reaching the end of its lifecycle; it didn't need a coffin nail.
I'm guessing you didn't read so many of the posts other than the OP and Donini's comment. We have been discussing the culture of climbing. It happens here from time to time. I do agree that that's probably an endless pursuit and that it's not so impressive.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Now that there is ultralight backpacking, the ultralightists like to group everyone else, people that carry 'too much', or people that don't 'know what they are doing', as 'traditional backpackpackers'. There's no such thing as traditional backpacking.
As Mr. Donini says,
A climb is what it is, the variations are endless.
In general, this is pretty off-base though;
There seems to be a general trend in climbing culture to call ascents of
routes with fixed and/or preplaced gear that aren't bolts as a traditional way to climb.
That just sounds like an inaccurate potrail of what trad is. In the outdoor industry, people call the newer dyneema grid fabrics just 'dyneema', and it leads to much confusion because there is such a thing as full dyneema, not just grid.
The only thing that might be traditional is stupidity, and that must be overcome. Trad climbing to me is leading and taking care of the rock as much as possible, for yourself and future climbers. I left a Dolt piton in a crack at the California Needles once. It was loose, but could just not get it out. The lip of rock it was behind would have been easy to chop away to get my pin out, but I left the pin. That's Trad climbing. That was 1970. Leaving that lip of rock may have been what made it possible to eventually free that pitch since it was in a very strategic spot. I have no idea, but I remember the lip of rock very well. Somebody may have come along later and chopped the pin out, or pulled it properly with some leverage. In general, the best of trad climbing is to just love the rock. It's like the old Seven-Up slogan; you like it - it likes you.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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McHale:
You do a good job of characterizing how some people disingenuously use or construct unnecessary categories to support a value judgment, either to control or to look down upon other people; I think this is what gets the dander up.
Apparently the tone of the OP fits this description?
Yes [perhaps] just a little bit.
Categorization in and of itself is not necessarily a judgmental tool, it's just a way to relate things to others.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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It looks like he is just asking if it's true don't you think? It's pretty wrong. From the fabric example it's easy to see how new climbers could get confused. Some people do some things disingenuously. Full Dyneema and Spectra are pure white for example. There was a company that was putting white dyneema grid in fabric but the nylon fabric itself was white. The manufacturer did not seem to care if the consumers 'thought' that the fabric was full dyneema or spectra. That is disingenuous. I'll re-read the OP. I did not look at the link!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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[edit] Yes that's how I took the OP, but others seem to be offended.
In the outdoor industry, people call the newer dyneema grid fabrics just 'dyneema', and it leads to much confusion because there is such a thing as full dyneema, not just grid.
Likewise, this is a good portrait of the need to strive for accurate categorization.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Truth or there's consequences!
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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I agree with what you are saying.
I'll re-read the OP.
It's sometimes a good idea to read an entire thread when responding, because the content, tone and even the vector changes.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Well, to me it looks like the OP might be thinking that Rock $ Ice called it a 'Trad' climb because it had fixed gear? They are calling it a trad climb because that's the way it was originally done. It has nothing to do with whether there is fixed gear or not. It just a problem with comprehending what R&I is saying. Part of that blame could go to R&I. It's always difficult to write so that all generations and everyone know exactly what is being said. It's interesting that the OP took what he took from it.
I guess there's nothing quite as trad as when a trad route was done for the very first time. It certainly does not sound like the repeat was in the style of the first ascent, but we really don'y know what that was, or what the repeat was exactly like, based on the short story.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Rock $ Ice Good one! Very funny.
It wasn't immediately apparent to me that it was ever a typical trad climb. I think it's a head point project, which lies square in the middle between trad and sport.
And ditto on everything else you said about the general confusion.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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That was a typo! I saw that and thought it was, well, not appropriate or intended, but fun! I like the magazine - they are doing a pretty artful job of it in the onslaught of the digital age.
I mentioned the Needles earlier also, before I saw mention of the Needles in the R&I link. Also, it's easy for me to make typos with the poor lighting at my desk, my lack of typing skill, and the fact that a third of the keys are minus their lettering! It's the fingernail pecking that kills my keyboards.
It wasn't immediately apparent to me that it was ever a typical trad climb.
Yeah, there's always that. If it never really was a Trad climb......I suppose if it does not hurt the rock, it must be climbed in a way that it can be climbed. I'll be going out and nutting and camming up that 5.13 finger crack at Index. It's fun, it's trad, and doesn't hurt anything.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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It just a problem with comprehending what R&I is saying. It's interesting that the OP took what he took from it.
Correct, but the ensuing conversation was stimulating, whatever the intent of the OP. What's interesting to me is the evolution of terms. What's equally interesting to me is how characterization through categorization gets people up in arms. Read through the thread and see what I'm saying about the latter.
And yes print media are dropping like flies.
BTW you think you got problems hunting and pecking, try this hair pulling voice control software and dropped call Internet connection I am stricken with!
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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It's looking more and more like it's the fault of R&I for confusing things. It probably WAS done with pre-fixed gear on the first ascent? They are calling it trad cause it's old and rad? God, what a mess! :>)
Chew on this;
but while inspecting the route Findlay discovered that much of Chicama's pre-placed pegs were now rotten due to years of weathering from the sea.
"Some of them fell out whilst I was working the route," explains Findlay. "Two of them snapped when we tried to get them out, which means that you can't use the same placement and have to find another spot for the pegs to go."
Findlay replaced enough pegs to make Chicama protectable again, and after three days of preparing the route she was ready for the lead.
She must have done it in the original style........but it does not sound very traditional. The only thing traditional was the use of fixed pins rather than bolts, and is it clear she even put the cams in on lead? I'm going to go and explode now.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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Yes, I've now read the thing a couple of times. Although by inference, it's pretty clear to me that this thing was a head point project, or maybe an old aid line that was freed; but in order to get it back up to snuff she definitely had to prepare it like a head point project. The fact that she worked it tells me it's head point. This is a term that's been in use for quite some time and nothing new. What I said very much earlier upthread is that younger climbers are dispensing with the distinction that head point indicates and just calling said climbs trad. Although I didn't say it so succinctly.
Definitely very necky: which is typical of head point projects.
Just check out that photo, she will deck if she falls from where she is at that moment.
Cover your keyboard before you explode!
From the sound of things it doesn't need any more torment or abuse.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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Risk is trad! That's it. It's all about the risk.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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No...it's about minimizing risk, which implies that risk is there.
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Tarbuster
climber
right here, right now
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This is what makes head pointing such an interesting approach for those of us familiar more with the binary trad/sport dichotomy. Head pointing is about rock preservation to a great extent, so the climbs tend to be risky, as bolts are eschewed. At the same time it's about preservation of the climber, so protection is [often] pre-placed and the moves are worked on top rope before the final performance.
Not to be arrogant, but I'm guessing a lot of people posting to this thread are not quite getting the distinction. That's why I say it is smack in the middle between trad and sport. I think it was a style developed first on Grit, wherein most of us understand bolts are a big no-no. Again, so the preservation of the rock and the preservation of the climber meet in the middle of the more familiar tactics of trad versus sport.
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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No...it's about minimizing risk, which implies that risk is there.
I was just speaking in the context of why R$I called that climb trad. I had to un-explode to write this!
so protection is [often] pre-placed and the moves are worked on top rope before the final performance.
I've been dying to use 'performance art' in this thread.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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I think Tarbuster is right on. But I would also add that in the UK tradition seems to be something that is more universally viewed as being valuable and worth preserving. Hazel did that climb, which is probably beyond all the posters on this thread, in the style it had originally been done in, replacing when possible the pitons that had deteriorated.
Chances are in this country someone with a Hilti would have gone down there and properly bolted the thing from top to bottom to fix it up so that everyone from the gym could climb it and keep it from becoming a "museum piece." But she chose to repeat the challenge in its original form. How, in a sane lexicographic world, could that be anything other than traditional climbing?
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McHale's Navy
Trad climber
Panorama City, California & living in Seattle
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It's clear that trad means different things in different locals. I like that particular genre of trad. This is all becoming much more clear now. I hope the OP appreciates our hard work! I'm going to go explode again now. Maybe R AND I knew what is was saying after all! Maybe that was the UK edition of the digi-R&I. You have to admit that any kind if climbing is pretty sporty.
The main thing here is to stay 6 posts ahead of the
Old people... give it up (OT) thread.
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jpin
Trad climber
CA
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How many times have you done a climb and used a pin scare for a finger hold? How many climbs have blot holes for finger holds?
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