Discussion Topic |
|
This thread has been locked |
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
And Ken, I most certianly do not know, much less believe, that the most wealthy achieved their wealth by bending the rules. That, too, is an article of faith by the Enviers, with rather scant evidence to back it up.
You might consider the appointment of Ambassadors, who are not part of the professional diplomatic corps, which number in the 40's if I'm not mistaken.
Virtually all of them, for a long time, have been political contributors.
Astonishingly, they do not come from the ranks of the guys who give $10, $100, $1,000 -----they are people who arrange hundreds of thousands, or millions of dollars of contributions, and they unfailingly are among the wealthiest people in America.
Now, as to bending the rules to obtain their wealth......that is not what I actually said. However, once wealthy to a certain extent, THEN they are able to use their wealth as a tool to REALLY accumulate the dollars.
|
|
Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
|
|
By the way, on this subject, if you think that people have equal opportunity to succeed, you need to read the fascinating Malcolm Gladwell book "Outliers: The Story of Success ", and you'll never think so again.
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
JEleazarian, i applaud what you refer to as your rant. It is one the clearest articulations i have heard of the reality of the equal opportunity we all have had in this country. Let's hope the the indolent, insecure, and ignorant do not get there way with the ruinous redistribution they are being mass conditioned to desire. It would only lead to a stagnation of creativity, a decline in ambition, and the poor only getting poorer along with us all.
I also second canyoncat's opinion.
|
|
kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
|
|
I wonder if the son of a plumber has the same oppurtunitys as the son of a wealthy wall st guy?
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
What makes you think a plumber might not be wealthy?
|
|
kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
|
|
because I'm a general contractor and I haven't met many.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
You are hanging with the wrong crowd then.
|
|
JEleazarian
Trad climber
Fresno CA
|
|
Kennyt,
My father took an extra year to get through high school, because he had to work in local packing houses in the Fall semester of his junior and senior years. He would have loved to go to college, but the family needed his income.
Of course the children of privilege have more opportunity than children of poverty. Just as Dr. F. protests that no Democrat proposes equality of wealth, I doubt that any Republican contends that everyone has the same opportunities. Ultimately, I think our perceptions differ on this proposition: I say that the biggest single determinant of a person's wealth is the decisions and actions they take, not luck or dishonesty.
I think, John M. that you're right on at least this count, though. I was wrong in referring to those expressing concern oover the distribution of wealth as "Enviers." I know you are not, and I can say the same about Ken M and probably most of the others on this thread. I am sorry. I was wrong.
Ultimately, I think I come down where Dave Kos seems to be. The best thing we can do is to teach our children well.
John
|
|
cmcc
Trad climber
Redding, CA
|
|
Looks like Hugo Chavez did a good job redistributing wealth...... to himself.
|
|
John M
climber
|
|
Apology accepted JohnE. I wish that wasn't the automatic response to anyone who questions how fair things are in America.
You're envious
You're jealous
You didn't work hard enough
you should have invested
you're lazy
blah blah blah.. tired of hearing it.
It tells me that people are buying the rush limbaugh, bill oliely fox new version of life and missing out and some important understanding.
Welfare queens aren't bankrupting america. Greed is.
Let them eat cake.. is what many are saying today.
TGT is strongly in the "let them eat cake" category.
|
|
TGT
Social climber
So Cal
|
|
The universe isn't fair!
A whole precession of utopian socialists have killed how many hundreds of millions, and produced unspeakable suffering trying to change that?
|
|
kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
|
|
The universe isn't fair! true that. I can remember like it was yesterday when I was bitching about something may dad saying lifes not fair.
|
|
Splater
climber
Grey Matter
|
|
"To add to all of this, there is no good data showing how either the distribution of wealth or the distribution of income changes over time."
That is incorrect. There is abundant material showing that both have become much more highly concentrated in the uppermost percentiles.
At the same time that the rich started earning more, (CEO power, global corporatism, Wall St bailouts, deregulation and loopholes) they spent some of that on lobbying politicians to get even more loopholes, deregulation, and lower taxes. Now we have lower taxes on unearned income (Buffet was exactly right), "carried interest", pension defaults, FDIC bailouts, etc.
|
|
Roughster
Sport climber
Vacaville, CA
|
|
To me the issue of wealth is about fair pay. IMO the average American works very hard at their job and is vastly underpaid. I absolutely disagree with a TGT JZ, et al that it is the lazy and "slackers" that are complaining. I see friends and family working 40-50 hours a week and can barely make ends meet and many of them have college degrees. The people that often get forgotten in all of this is the working poor, and the middle class which make up the largest % of the U.S. Population. These are not people sitting on their asses, these are people who serve you food, check you out at the cash register, work on your car, etc. These people are getting F*#KED given the current economics in America.
Because of the move to large corporations, the good and the ugly is cheaper prices, lower wages. When you are the only gig in town, you pay people what you want, not what the work they do deserves. The $$ they would've/should've paid to their employees goes to the wealthy via "profit" since they own the corporations in the first place. Why is a CEOs 40 hour work week worth 384X the average workers salary in the company? That's f*#king ridiculous. People will say, well they work more than 40 hours a week. Guess what??? EVERYONE DOES!!!
Corporations can further drive salaries down by either threatening or actually shipping your job overseas. The ones that stay here and are now part of a multi-national company get "compared" to the salaries people are making in 3rd World Countries where the cost of living is also a lot cheaper, and they pull the "you are already paid the most in the world" card.
The federal minimum wage is $7.25 per hour or $15,080 a year for someone who works 40 hours a week, 52 weeks a year (that means ZERO vacation) and that is under the poverty line for anyone other than an 18 year old boy.
This isn't about me and my problems. I am a top 8% single earner and top 5% married earner per whatsmypercent.com. The difference in a lot of these threads is I don't feel it is all about how much more I can get. How about some compassion and empathy. Oh yeah, f*#k the poor, they are just stepping stones to padding the bank account a little more right?
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
|
|
Let's hope the the indolent, insecure, and ignorant do not get there way with the ruinous redistribution they are being mass conditioned to desire. It would only lead to a stagnation of creativity, a decline in ambition, and the poor only getting poorer along with us all.
Absolutely, comrade! It's time for the fat cats on Wall Street to get off our backs and start pulling their own weight. That's what I'm talking about. Eugene Debs put it best:
“We propose to destroy the capitalist and save the man. We want a system in which the worker shall get what he produces and the capitalist shall produce what he gets.”
It's about time that honest work was respected in the USA.
|
|
the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
|
|
These threads are often more indicative of the various posters biases than any insight into the reality of the situation and any changes that should be made.
At the same time that the rich started earning more, (CEO power, global corporatism, Wall St bailouts, deregulation and loopholes) they spent some of that on lobbying politicians to get even more loopholes, deregulation, and lower taxes. Now we have lower taxes on unearned income (Buffet was exactly right), "carried interest", pension defaults, FDIC bailouts, etc.
That's really what this is about. It's not about making everyone's income/wealth equal and giving income to people who didn't earn it (when someone brings up this childish spoon fed bullsh#t it just shows how biased and/or brainwashed they are). It's not about welfare people vs. people who earn their money. It's about middle class people (the majority if not all the people posting here) vs. the 1/10 of 1% of people who are accumulating more and more of the income and wealth.
Ideologically I'm against things like the estate tax, higher taxes on capital gains, etc. but I know without them the people with a lot of money (I'm talking 100s of millions)(possibly not earned but just inherited) will continue to get a greater and greater percentage of all wealth/income and more and more people will struggle to get by. Right now it's the working poor who struggle to make ends meet and save anything for retirement, but if things keep going the way they are the middle and upper middle class will be stuggling too.
Look at what has happened over the last 15 years. Middle class income is stagnant, while the very rich (e.g. $10 million a year plus annual income) have seen their income grow a large amount.
I'm doing fine. I make good money. I'd prefer to pay less taxes but I'm ok with paying what I do now. What's messed up is the people making 100 times what I do and pay a smaller percent of their income as taxes because most of it comes from capital gains (money making money). But unfortunately you have the Repubs in congress and the conservatives (anyone who is ok with being a conservative is ok with being an ideologue instead of a moderate who knows being pragmatic is more important that sticking to your principles when they cause problems) saying you can't raise taxes at all. Nevermind taxes for the very rich are low historically and low among other 1st world countries.
The very rich have done a great job fooling otherwise smart people into buying the whole "Liberals want everyone to have the same income and take your hard earned money and give it to those who choose not to work". It's hard for me to comprehend that people can be that gullible.
|
|
kennyt
climber
Woodfords,California
|
|
You mean like joe the plumber? that guy would be the guy TGT is reffering to if Obama would have lost!!
|
|
rick sumner
Trad climber
reno, nevada/ wasilla alaska
|
|
Dr. F- How about Joseph Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot for starters. They all, at one time or another spouted socialist ideals while enacting policies that resulted in the death of millions of their citizens. They also systematically murdered many millions of others who dissented.
|
|
Gary
Social climber
Right outside of Delacroix
|
|
They all, at one time or another spouted socialist ideals while enacting policies that resulted in the death of millions of their citizens.
Talk is cheap. Actions speak louder than words. You can call yourself whatever you want, that doesn't make it so.
I've never read of capitalism being condemned as an economic system just because the majority of its practitioners have been murderous tyrants.
|
|
|
SuperTopo on the Web
|
Let us know!