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Lynne Leichtfuss
Sport climber
moving thru
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Feb 11, 2013 - 11:23pm PT
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Have you done something about it or are you just throwing stones? I'm not catholic I just get tired of political rants. If you want to change the world do something about it. Talk is words blown in the wind.
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High Fructose Corn Spirit
Gym climber
-A race of corn eaters
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Feb 11, 2013 - 11:26pm PT
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He's critiquing, he's engaging. That's getting involved. That's doing something.
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 08:36am PT
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Hot off the Twitter feed. get it while you can.
https://twitter.com/PopeBenedictXIV
"I join all those marching for life from afar, and pray that political leaders will protect the unborn and promote a culture of life."
I think it is funny that the Church is not sure what to call him after he leaves? LOL
Chinchen has it right-Quitter.
Hey LL lighten up " I just get tired of political rants." you know better than to even click them. Some people get tired of the Jesus lovers going on.
There is room for all of us.Everyone should just go about their life as they wish. God knows its short.
Edit, my grandma was wise beyond her years and I will always remember what she taught me, no need to talk about religion or politics with those who are not close and never say no to a girl because you dont know what her friends look like!
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steve shea
climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 10:20am PT
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I do not see this as political. Just observations on a long term Vatican crime. All the sh#t rolls to the top in Catholicism. Not only was the the Vatican aware but complicit in the crime. Politically speaking the Vatican should not even be a state, accorded the diplomatic immunties granted nation states. The Vatican was created with another crime. A wink and a nod to Mussolini and Hitler and a look the other way all the time knowing of the genocide being perpetrated in WWII. The trade off was the Vatican was given state status and protection from the fascist regime. That is why they are a state today and enjoy the privileges associated. Silence. They are an entity unto themselves and answer to no laws but their own. That is why the coverup lasted so long. Ireland, almost appearing as a theocracy at times has all but booted the Catholic church as a result of the sex scandal revelations. .02 Italy does have good climbing though.
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 10:34am PT
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Eric that is awesome!!!!
So help me God or may lightning strike!
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steve shea
climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 11:26am PT
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That is it, he's off the hook!
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 12, 2013 - 11:26am PT
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Oh SNAP!
"The Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests (SNAP) can't be any happier about the pope's retirement. In 2011, SNAP filed a complaint at the International Criminal Court in the Hague against Benedict and Cardinals Tarcisio Bertone, Angelo Sodano and William Levada, charging all four with "command responsibility" for aiding and abetting the systematic abuse of children on an international scale."
Edit: is that Zip?
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Don Paul
Big Wall climber
Colombia, South America
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Feb 12, 2013 - 11:50am PT
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The phrase "command responsibility" is legalese from international law, usually applied in the war crimes context, but CCR who brought the civil case against them has to fit it into established legal categories. I think its the first time that something like widespread sexual abuse of children has been litigated as a violation of international law.
Even if the Vatican is an independent state, other states would be able to request the extradition of the offenders for violating their own states laws. Ie. an Irish victim should be able to bring a criminal case in Ireland and then the govt of Ireland requests extradition of the person from the Vatican. Extradition treaties streamline the process but are not necessary.
This is heading in the direction of prosecuting dozens or hundreds of priests around the world. But the Church proves this is necessary since they condone and cover up these crimes. Ratzinger himself could end up in the dock, if he lives that long.
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crunch
Social climber
CO
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Feb 12, 2013 - 12:46pm PT
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Hey, Bruce Kay, there's a fascinating book about the relationship between the Pope and Hitler:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitler's_Pope
http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Pope-Secret-History-Pius/dp/B001RNN8P8/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1360689819&sr=1-1&keywords=hitlers+pope
This book is detailed, well researched, great reading, horrific implications.
The author's brother (quite the literary family) is better known by his nom de plume John le Carre.
A theme of this book, still relevant today, is that the Vatican's main policy is centralized, absolute power. No regional dissent is to be tolerated.
One of the accusations is that the future Pope Pius decided to consolidate the Vatican's influence over uppity German Catholic clergy. He negotiated a 1933 Concordat with Hitler, deliberately undermining and fatally weakening the popular, Catholic "Center Party" who for many years had been a moderating influence on German politics. The predictable result: the sudden, unstoppable rise of Hitler. The implication is that Pacelli just did not give a damn.
Fascinating stuff. But it gets worse. He'd seen this before. Eugenio Pacelli, same guy, was involved in the Balkans thirty years earlier, meddling that was intended to weaken dissent: the shifting of power he put in motion provoked violence, assassination and helped start WW1.
Did Vatican political machinations provoke both WW1 and WW2? Hard to believe, yet Cornwall has done his research, lays it all out. An excellent read.
Ratzinger is of the same mold as Pacelli. A ruthless person who understands full well the precedent he is setting. His resignation is surely a highly calculated, deliberate political act. Presumably intended to strengthen the Vatican's power by allowing the promotion of a new, younger, more vigorous Pope.
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Seamstress
Trad climber
Yacolt, WA
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Feb 12, 2013 - 03:32pm PT
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Sadly religious persecution continues. People love to find fault with the human beings that are in charge of the Catholic Church.
Is their fault to find with the child abuse? Certainly. Can the church do a better job coming to grips with it? Certainly. Will strong direction from the top help? Absolutely.
Just as Western folks have trouble understanding Eastern behavior, it seems that many can't understand the thinking of many in the church. It isn't all about assets and money. There is another element here. Catholics believe in forgiveness and redemption. Catholics confess their shortcomings to their priest and expect that which is spoken will never leave the confessional. There was a belief that the bad priests could be repent and be redeemed. Finding the right line between those core beliefs and how to operate within our society proved to be difficult, and wrong choices were made. I hope that the new leadership will accelerate the process of reconciliation between the church and the people with regard to pedophilia. It is clear that it must happen and be transparent. In many corners of the church, that is happening today. It must become more universal. Anyone in our diocese who has any contact with children now must go through training and a background check. We have seen our priest pulled from our parish much earlier than the normal term to relieve other priests who have been removed from their duties for various reasons - pedophilia to stealing. Priests are on trial, and documents are being released.
Separation of church and state also makes this difficult. That doesn't mean that the boundaries can be worked out such that priests who abuse their position can't be dealt with by their chain of command as well as by civic authority.
Do I think that evading responsibility for the abuse scandal is the reason why the Pope is resigning. No. I do believe that an 85 year old man who can hardly walk and has a pacemaker may realize that he does not have the physical capacity to tend to a flock of 1.2 billion in this very dynamic world. Even Christ wondered if he had the strength to bear the burden he was given. I don't begrudge an 85 year old the right to retire.
The church has admitted that it wasn't perfect in the past. I doubt that any leader can make decisions at any point in history that will satisfy all people at all times. It still amazes me that JFK could be elected given the widespread distrust of Catholics. Other religions also face extra hurdles.
I would love to see one of several US Cardinals be elected. I think that they practical experience they have about this scandal could go a long way towards bringing the church to a better understanding of the proper boundaries.
There are comments on this thread that I find objectionable, certainly outside the boundaries of civil discourse. I respect your right to have an opinion different from mine. I respect your right to demand change, and I may share much of your passion that change happen. I don't share the lynch mentality for all people and officials in the church. The church will survive, and I want to see it evolve. It is a huge champion of the oppressed throughout the world and a huge deliverer of social services and hope, even within our own country.
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Jennie
Trad climber
Elk Creek, Idaho
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Feb 12, 2013 - 03:44pm PT
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Good post, Seamstress!
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steve shea
climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 04:21pm PT
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From the holocaust to child sex abuse and rampant predatory behavior, the modern, post WWII, history of the catholic church has been hallmarked by coverup. Because much of this is just coming to light now is of no matter. It happened under the collective watches of the College of Cardinals since the days of Mussolini. The College reports to the Pope. At the least they were a buffer at the worst directly complicit. Raetzinger's main responsibilty as a Cardinal, near the end just before becoming pontiff, was to handle the 100's of sexual abuse cases that were being reported from around the world. NOT ONE PRIEST WAS EXCOMMUNICATED. He took this knowledge with him as the head of the Catholic church and did nothing! These travesties continue today. By continual support of these crimes against children and therefore humanity, through omission and coverup, how is Raetzinger any different than Jerry Sandusky? Sadly the good the church has done in no way mitigates what has gone on. Well said Bruce Kay.
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Feb 12, 2013 - 11:43pm PT
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Here's a thought experiment for you:
Assume that there is a God, and that Jesus was what the Christians say he was. Now, ask yourself, what is lost if the Roman Catholic church is brought down. Smashed. No more Pope, no more Vatican, no more Cardinals and nuns and monks and priests.
Is God still there? Well, if there was a God, then there still would be.
Does getting rid of an insanely wealthy hierarchy mean that Jesus somehow isn't what he was? Again, whatever Jesus was or wasn't, the existence of Vatican doesn't change that.
So why get defensive when people struggle to bring down a bunch of corrupt bankers and disgusting child molesters? Are your religious beliefs so flimsy that you need what the Catholic church has become to convince yourself that they are real?
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WBraun
climber
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Feb 12, 2013 - 11:59pm PT
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Is God still there?
Yep.
God doesn't depend on religion or church priests yogis Brahmans humans animals all living entities etc etc.
They all depend on him counter to the stupid idea projected that man invented God.
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 12:03am PT
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Terrible post seamstress.
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ncrockclimber
climber
The Desert Oven
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Feb 13, 2013 - 12:04am PT
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The Pope and the leadership of the catholic church helped know pedophiles to evade prosecution and the put them into positions where they could molest more children. To put is another way, they helped grown men to f*#k children. Despising the church and the pope for this is not religious prosecution. It is justified outrage! The catholic church is corrupt and anyone who supports it is complicit in its crimes.
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Fish Finder
Social climber
THE BOTTOM OF MY HEART
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Topic Author's Reply - Feb 13, 2013 - 12:05am PT
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Hey Werner
Word
Have you ever thought about starting a Twitter account!
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 12:10am PT
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Finding the right line between those core beliefs and how to operate within our society proved to be difficult, and wrong choices were made.
Such an incredible understatement.
Evil was done and you fail to recognize it. You excuse it as a "wrong choice".
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John M
climber
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Feb 13, 2013 - 12:21am PT
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A mistake??? I'm having a hard time processing that. Lets see.. I suppose you could forgive them once, but more then once? Come on. The church sent them to "reprocessing and forgiveness training".. and then sent them on to unsuspecting churches. And then when some of them did it again,.. the church just sent them to a third world church.
And you call that a mistake?
I call it criminal.
The blind leading the blind. Thats what is going on in that church.
I believe that the previous pope was naive. I believe that this pope is evil.
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