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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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I think it's kind of ironic that Matt would link those shots of Mark D on the Owl Roof OW. Mark may be a fine climber but he didn't climb the OWL roof. Those shots were posed on aid as a photo op.
Regarding the history of the grand. I hope Fern will forgive me for sharing her excellent post from rec.climbing which shares more details of the FA.
Peace
karl
++++++++++++
The "Grand Wall" is one of those routes with variations for
just about every pitch, some pitches have names, others do
not but the whole collection gets the name since it's the
name of the wall itself. It's most commonly climbed as a
5.11a A0, although a completely free version was
accomplished in 2001 at mid 5.13 , the grade in the oldest
guidebook I have is 5.6 A1 (1968). The first ascent of the
Grand Wall was in 1961 by Jim Baldwin and Ed Cooper (who
subsequently went to Yosemite and put up Dihedral Wall on El
Cap using similar technique and were criticized for being
behind the times for fixing lines and seiging, in Squamish
they get a beer named after them).
Ed Cooper's article can be found here:
http://www.squamishrock.com/report/grand.wall.html
That's 40 years of history between the first adventure, and the
final problem'.
Baldwin and Cooper seemed to like the Diretissima style ...
they started in the middle of the wall and tried to go up in
as straight a line as possible. Lucky for them there are
actually nice features to link between otherwise their bolt
ladder might have been a lot longer than the 160 that they
placed! They nailed the split pillar with blocks of wood and
a 3 pound hammer and found that it expanded enough to drop
the lower blocks out as the next one was nailed. The split
pillar is a slightly less than verticle dihedral. It's no
wonder that when they ran into a similar wide crack leaning
out into almost a roof they decided that bolting would be a
better option than trying the wood blocks again ... I don't
know that that was truly their reasoning, but it seems
logical to me.
The A0 section was until a few years ago a batman haul up an
old hawser, but was replaced with a short bolt ladder. There
recently was some back and forth of a bolt or two lower down
on the Split Pillar or the Sword pitches, placed then
chopped then placed then chopped ... but other than that the
protection bolts have all been around for at least 20 years,
before people even talked about 'sport' climbing. Perry's
lieback was freed in 1982, but the bolts were already there
and were used for protecting the FFA. If somebody is
planning to haul a bunch of #4 Camalots and a crowbar up
there to teach us Canadians a lesson in how lame we are,
just be aware that there is still some loose choss in that
crack and with the base of the Grand Wall being a very
popular area to climb chances are that you will cream
someone when you knock it out.
->f
(by the local of the area Fern, posted on Rec.climbing)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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Topic Author's Reply - Jun 7, 2003 - 05:25pm PT
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Just wanted to say that in retrospect, "Atrocity" seems way
out of line -- sorry to anyone I might have offended.
I posted the link before really looking into the circumstances.
Ignorance is not always blissful.
Just think, with one click of the edit button, I could delete
this entire thread, and all blatent evidence of my naivete'...
(moving the trigger finger across the keyboard)
Ahh, I'm savoring the immense power of censorship!
Hardman Knott
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78 busman
Mountain climber
Davis
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Hardman....
Kudo's! I deleted my response (oh! the power of
the mouse!) when I realized that an opinion, no matter
how presented could be taken in the wrong context,
when read by those that have a closed mind... L.L.C.H
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Moof
Big Wall climber
A cube at my soul sucking job in Oregon
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Jan 24, 2008 - 01:34pm PT
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Squamish definately has looser ethics than most areas. Hit up the Kakodemon (sp?) boulder. There is a 5.13 sport "route" that is all chiseled finger pockets. Up by the Star Wall there are some boulder problems that are just chiseled finger pockets.
To each his own.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 24, 2008 - 01:39pm PT
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Old thread, indeed.
I honestly had no idea what this 5 year old thread was about. It took a few minutes
to remember that the link in the OP was a pic of a bunch of bolts next to a bomber crack.
Anyway, that film looks cool. Any chance of me getting a Foot in Mouth Discount™?
Edit: Moof - I saw that route. I heard it was an "outdoor gym" that was climbable
in the rain, that they would hang a tarp down over it to keep it dry.
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 01:41pm PT
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"tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?"
-doesn't everybody?
--couldn't resist
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Russ Walling
Social climber
Out on the sand.... man.....
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:36pm PT
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Pastrami writes: tell me please who owns 5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?
umm.... I do.... and a few of the folks over here: http://www.widefetish.com
I'd like to see the pic, but I think it is gone from the Gallery?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:40pm PT
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5 #4 Camalots or equivalent?
I only own one.
You guys are cheaters ...... hee hee
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:48pm PT
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Why did they put the bolts on the main wall?
Does this need those bolts?
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 24, 2008 - 02:54pm PT
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Hey, that's it!
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Jaybro
Social climber
The West
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:03pm PT
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That does LOOK pretty lame, at least from way over here.
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couchmaster
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:38pm PT
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Not to further scar anyone, but the caption reads:
"After the most strenuous 20 metres of climbing on the entire route, the leader is rewarded with a perfect no hands rest in the chimney.
Climber: Alisdair Buchanan
Photographer: Matthew Buckle"
heh heh.....I'm jus sayin'
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:41pm PT
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Right above his helmet is good crack for protection.
Now I "see" that the bolts are "Way homo"
Why did they bolt this?
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Ghost
climber
A long way from where I started
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Jan 24, 2008 - 03:53pm PT
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Werner asks "Why did they bolt this?"
Ed Cooper's still around, you could ask him.
But it would be the wrong question, to the wrong person. The right question is "Why did they rebolt this?" However, in order to understand the answer you would have to have an understanding of the history of both that route and of Squamish climbing in general.
It's easy to look at things (lots of things, not just climbs or pitches on climbs) out of context and say "That's wrong!" But sometimes, after you absorb the context, it is your original response that will be seen as wrong.
I ain't sayin' one way or the other. I've climbed it, and was plenty thankful for the bolts. But I would also love to be able to try to climb it without the bolts.
D
Reality edit: I'd love to be younger and thinner and stronger, so that I could try it without bolts.
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 04:44pm PT
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There is some history to Perry's Lieback, much of which is already upthread. The story behind the Grand Wall, though, is that from 1975 on, it gradually became more and more of a free climb, with significant variations to the original line. Sort of application of Mark & Max's "As Free as Can Be" philosophy, over two decades. It didn't suddenly become a free climb, and when the last few tiny bits of aid were removed, it was no big deal.
Some of this history isn't well recorded, but I'll try, at least for the lower pitches:
 There are 10 or 11 pitches on the route to the Dance Platform (large ledge) and Bellygood Ledge - an escape ledge. Then another 4 or 5 pitches to the top, the Roman Chimneys.
The route was climbed by Baldwin and Cooper in 1961, and as of the mid 1970s was a well-established 'wall' climb. Mostly aid, a little free.
The first pitch is a 5.10b stem/layback, also called the Flake Route, followed by an easy pitch to the top of the Flake. Many instead climb an adjacent route called Apron Strings, which is two pitches (5.10b, 5.9). It is also possible to hike/scramble to the top of the Flake, and avoid the first two pitches.
The original Grand Wall bolt ladder started just below the top of the Flake, and went in three short pitches to the base of the Split Pillar. It is one of the longest bolt ladders in the world (~60 bolts?), is now rarely climbed (although crossed by some modern routes), and is a recognized historic feature of the park.
Virtually everyone now climbs a face route called Mercy Me, which is left of the bolt ladder, for two pitches (5.8 or 5.9). At the top, a traverse pitch (5.10b, A0 for most) leads to the base of the Pillar. This pitch may first have been done by Dave Loeks and Bill Putnam in 1975 - they were trying to beat Daryl and Eric to the Pillar. The first part of the traverse is on an old aid route called Ten Years After. (Done ten years after the Grand Wall was done. Also a psychedelic band name.) The crux of the traverse used to be protected by nuts and two or three fixed pins, which have been replaced with bolts.
Then the Split Pillar, first freed in 1975 by Eric and Daryl, and graded 5.9, using hexes. (Now 5.10b) There is a lovely cedar tree at the base of the Pillar.
Then the Sword, a 5.10d stem and lieback pitch up a small corner and then face crack, first freed in 1981 (possibly earlier) by Greg and Peter. This led into another bolt ladder, which led in a short pitch to a ledge. Perry's Lieback is a bit left of that bolt ladder - the two converge toward the top. It is very doubtful that Baldwin & Cooper could have climbed the layback crack, free or aid. For some time, the old bolt ladder featured a fixed yachting rope, which the brave could batman up. The rope was tied through the bolt hangers. At some point, the old bolt ladder was removed, and the rope now lives in a bucket in my brother's basement.
Perry did his lieback in 1981. At that time, there was no removeable gear that could have protected it. The biggest camming units were then #4 Friends, Tubechocks were never all that useful, and I don't think Big Brothers had been invented then, or at least weren't much available. The crack was also too wide for bongs, even endways.
Perry was then and still is one of the stronger climbers in B.C. and Canada, and has done lots of climbing elsewhere. He has sound judgment, and isn't known for ethical slackness. I believe the sequence may have been that he added the bolts for the lieback (1/4" Rawls), spaced so they could be used for aid climbing if needed, then later the 'old' bolt ladder was removed. I could be wrong. Eventually Perry's old Rawls were replaced with modern shiny 3/8" bolts. Given Perry's stature in our community, and the prevailing ethos at Squamish (perhaps not as pure as Yosemite), if he thought that was the right thing to do, no one had a problem with it. (A bit like Peter Haan and Jim Bridwell, on Wheat Thin.)
Given that the layback crack diagonals up and right, it would be very hard to place bolts that were both reasonably clippable, but that you couldn't put a foot on.
In 2000 Scott Cosgrove freed something like the old bolt ladder line, removing the last 6 - 8 points of aid on the route. Steep face climbing.
Peter and Greg also freed the last two pitches to Bellygood (the "Flats") in 1981, and much of the upper five pitches.
Most people now free climb the Grand Wall to their limit, and aid anything that's 5.11 or harder. It's recognized as a climb that is within the abilities of those who can lead "easy" 5.11 cracks, and 90%+ can be done free at that level. Few can do it all free, which is 5.13 or so.
Like some routes in Yosemite and elsewhere, the Grand Wall and Perry's Lieback have a lot of history. It is known and accepted that they are what they are. In the modern context, it might be possible to do the lieback without bolts - but it's been in that form for over 25 years. There are significant routes in Yosemite that have bolts that may not be necessary, strictly speaking. Many routes at Squamish and Yosemite could be climbed with reasonable safety by a competent party, using fewer bolts. But 'trade' routes in particular tend over time to have bolts added, particularly at belays, not to mention other fixed stuff - hence occasional clean ups of routes such as the Zodiac. But they're far from the state they were in when first climbed.
There are some very large underlying issues, but we can't solve them here. One is what are "necessary" bolts? Another is what place does convenience bolting have? Bolts, that is, that aren't strictly necessary, but that make a route more user-friendly. (Somewhat related to Ron's ethos for soft rock climbs.) I personally have concerns about convenience bolting at Squamish, both because of such traditions and ethos as we have, and because commercial interests often underlie it. As is evident from much of Europe, it's a short, steep and slippery slope. (I'll save my story about Diedre and convenience bolting for another time.) Another is awareness of the history and ethos of an area and routes.
Ultimately, the issues around real and perceived environmental impacts, and management of public land, are the key. So far climbers at Squamish have been left to sort out these things themselves, but that may not last forever.
It is an interesting thought experiment - if we found a new cliff now, like El Capitan or the Stawamus Chief, what sort of routes would appear, using modern techniques and equipment? How would they change over time? Would it look anything like it does now?
(In the interests of truth in advertising, at least on SuperTopo - "hippy chick" who posted upthread is Angela Heck, producer of "In the Shadow of the Chief", and spouse of Ivan Hughes. A fine film, well worth having.)
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Muir Woods National Monument, Mill Valley, Ca
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:25pm PT
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Great post, Anders. So what about that Foot in Mouth™ discount?
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WBraun
climber
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:39pm PT
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Hummmmnnnn?
First; thanks for the information on the history Anders.
Now lemme see ....
"The crack was also too wide for bongs, even endways."
This doesn't hold water. Exiting out of the Zebra on Tissack half dome I stacked bongs on the overhanging wide exiting crack.
On Excalibur bongs were stacked.
Maybe they didn't know how to stack or thought it was too scary. (It can be)
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Mighty Hiker
Social climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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Jan 24, 2008 - 05:44pm PT
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Werner, I believe that on both Tis-sa-Ack and Excalibur you were aid climbing, using stacked bongs. Which must have been - interesting.
Would it be reasonable to try to place stacked bongs in a 5.11 layback/undercling, and would they do much good even if you could get them in?
There were also some homemade 5" and even 6" bongs floating about in the 1970s and early 1980s, though again not widely available, and probably not a lot of use.
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