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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Ken I gotta modify the do not scrub advice. If there is embedded dirt/ gravel etc you do have to scrub until you get it out, otherwise you end up with a tattoo in the scar..
You DO have to get the stuff out, but the damage caused by scrubbing makes me shy away from it, except in the most severe circumstances, and those should not be self-cleaned while drunk.
I far prefer to use pressure irrigation. In ER's in which I've worked or run, my preference was a Water-Pic. There is very little a gallon/two of that won't remove, with little damage. The poor man's version would be a hose, or water poured from a bottle from a height of a couple of feet. Very little tissue damage, and FAR less pain. Of course, I always anesthetize such wounds. I also like using a wet-to-dry dressing technic for removing debris over time, which is very effective for removing the junk.
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Mighty Hiker
climber
Vancouver, B.C.
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I believe that hepatitis B has been found in an infectious state in egyptian mummies. It is very hard to kill. Bacteria are easily killed, in contrast. usually minutes or hours.
Thanks, Ken. So of the various things humans are likely to produce and deposit on or near rocks - urine, faeces, and blood in particular - which are a health threat, per se, and how long does it last? It sounds like bacteria in blood die fairly quickly, especially in the open air/sun. What about viruses? How long do faeces take to decompose?
(IIRC, urine in and of itself is sterile, although a fine medium in which to grow things.)
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TGT
Social climber
So Cal
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Way.....way.....way back when, the Eye at Jtree had a huge raptor nest about half way up and a liberal dressing of bird sh#t.
About a week after the armpit started to swell, couldn't put my arm down past half mast. By the time I got into the doctor the lymph node was the size of a goose egg and the diagnosis was Cat Scratch Fever.
Out came the mini harpoon lance and instant relief followed by a rather large dose of just out of the refrigerator cooooold penicillin.
The lump under the armpit was gratefully traded for a short lived lump on an ass cheek.
I still have an excessive adverse reaction to bird sh#t.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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So of the various things humans are likely to produce and deposit on or near rocks - urine, faeces, and blood in particular - which are a health threat, per se, and how long does it last? It sounds like bacteria in blood die fairly quickly, especially in the open air/sun. What about viruses? How long do faeces take to decompose?
(IIRC, urine in and of itself is sterile, although a fine medium in which to grow things.)
Blood is the PERFECT medium to grow bugs....in fact, the general type of petri dish we use in the lab is a blood medium. Works great for bacteria, and some viruses. But as it dries, bacteria die rapidly, except for some that create special capsules to protect from drying. Tetanus, for example. Some viruses are very hardy, like the hepatitis types, that withstand drying just fine.
Urine is pretty dilute, and there is generally not a LOT of stuff to grow on, so unless you have a puddle of it, it will dry out pretty fast, and things will tend to die rapidly.
Feces are not a particularly good growth medium, as most of the nutrients have already been consumed. Feces are about 90% bacteria by weight. There may be viruses. However, infectivity decreases rapidly with drying.
Blood is definitely the one I'd be most concerned about.
It's been said that the best way to dispose of feces in the backcountry, when no one will be about, is to smear it on an exposed rock, and let the sun dry it, which it will do in a day or two, killing the bugs. Takes longer in soil.
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Wade Icey
Trad climber
www.alohashirtrescue.com
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some folks still haven't recovered from their Steph Infections
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neebee
Social climber
calif/texas
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hey there say, roadkilphil... get well soon as time allows...
very sorry to hear of this... and for anyone, as well...
seems there are enough hard things in the world--it is sad if our bodies
turn against us, in the middle of all that, :(
may the grace abound for our bodies to properly fight this off...
and good open doors of help, to be there, as well...
wash, is always a good thing--our mom's taught us that too...
water, is what she said, too, and soap...
'course, bad then, we really NEVER heard of this 'out of control'
type infection situations... :(
praying and well wishes for you phil!
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Jan
Mountain climber
Okinawa, Japan
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I've had many bad infections from living in the tropics. In this environment, we rush to the ER for a shot as soon as swelling or redness occurs and we all have current tetanus shots. It's routine here that the ER docs draw a line above and below the wound and tell us to reappear for antibiotic IV's if the redness goes beyond the mark.
We're also told to never use iodine on a wound incurred in the ocean as coral and most marine life are resistant to iodine and it doesn't work.
The main thing that seems to prevent infection for me, is to make a wound bleed, squeezing hard above a tiny skin break if necessary, to make that happen. I continue to do this under running water for awhile before putting on cream and gauze.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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LNT no longer teaches the smear on a rock technique.
Well, no doubt they do.
but they are purists, concerned with only one thing in their purity.
They are not concerned with health outcomes. They are not staffed with medical professionals. They don't take into account various public health issues.
But anyway, it wasn't the point of the post, which was the infectivity of feces, and how long it remained infective. (which you might consider is considerable, in that plastic bag, or trash can)
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roadkillphil
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 9, 2012 - 08:57pm PT
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Thanks for all the feedback, everybody. Getting better every day. Besides the hygiene issues the life lesson I'm (re)learning is that if you're thinking of doing something sometime, best to make that time sooner rather than later.
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BASE104
Social climber
An Oil Field
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A buddy of mine got a simple blister on his heel and ended up nearly losing his foot over this. It was totally sick looking for a couple of months until the mega antibiotics finally killed it.
The doc said that our skin is covered with staph at all times, and he could have avoided it with prompt soap and water.
It was wild. Totally changed my opinion of simple blisters or cuts.
My general hygiene level has never been all that great, as many can attest.
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roadkillphil
Trad climber
Colorado
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Topic Author's Reply - Dec 15, 2012 - 01:58pm PT
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Don't forget to soak those ratty, filthy shoes in bleach or something every once in a while...
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scuffy b
climber
heading slowly NNW
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Dec 17, 2012 - 06:48pm PT
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My infection, mentioned above, could have been initiated either at Mt.
Woodson or at the local climbing gym. As soon as the symptoms became
unusual, I sought medical care. The Doc or PA who saw me immediately
suspected SA and thought that a community-acquired MRSA was likely, so he
put me on the appropriate antibiotic Clandomycin, I think, while my goo
was being cultured. I saw pictures of the agar-diffusion assay which
confirmed his diagnosis. That was pretty cool. I was fortunate to be put on the
course of antibiotics before waiting for the confirmation.
I also used Hibiclens for a while, and a topical antibiotic called
BactroBan in my nostrils. No complications, no recurrence. I think getting
the early treatment was critical.
The explosion of my carbuncle was after the course of antibiotics was
completed. Apparently I was not infective by that time.
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Ken M
Mountain climber
Los Angeles, Ca
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Dec 18, 2012 - 01:55am PT
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The doc said that our skin is covered with staph at all times, and he could have avoided it with prompt soap and water.
Word!
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Rockin' Gal
Trad climber
Boulder
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:16pm PT
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I had a staph infection near my elbow a couple months ago. Red, swollen, painful. Possibly entered through a small elbow abrasion that was a souvenir from Devils Tower. Intravenous anti-biotics for 3 days, luckily out-patient, before the oral meds kicked in.
I asked the doctor what I could do to prevent this, and she said, "Moisturize your elbows."
Apparently knees and elbows are the common places that the bacteria enters due to dry skin, scrapes, etc.
I added some neosporin to my climbing pack. Can't hurt.
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Snowmassguy
Trad climber
Calirado
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Dec 19, 2012 - 02:32pm PT
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Here in CO, a 7 year old boy just passed from strep of all things. So sad..my boy played on a lacrosse team with the kid this past fall and I dont know what to tell my son. Concurrently, a girl in my daughters class just returned to school with drug resistant MRSA. Kind makes you a bit nervous. This stuff is everywhere these days.
My climbing wounds have always healed up nicely but I am way more careful now when cleaning and treating and cuts and scrapes.
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bjj
climber
beyond the sun
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Dec 19, 2012 - 04:39pm PT
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When I stopped climbing in 2003, I started taking wrestling, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, Mixed martial arts training.
Skin issues are fairly common in those sports, as you are rolling around on mats that get covered in whatever sweat / dirt / etc that is on anyone's body. You must be absolutely vigilant about cleaning and disinfecting them every single day, and not allowing shoes or any "street" clothing on them.
We kept our gym clean, so issues were at a minimum, but at other places with more lax standards, it was a common occurrence. I have seen ringworm, staph and full blown case of MRSA which ended up requiring lengthy hospital stays where large chunks of flesh would be removed, and massive long term antibiotics required to keep people from dying.
It's nasty stuff.
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FrankZappa
Trad climber
Hankster's crew
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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Got a heinous infection called erysipelas wile climbing in Monument basin. Without antibiotics it would have killed me.
Anyway, there is a fairly proud 5.11 tower waiting a (I think)second ascent if anyone is psyched. Needless to say, there is a fair bit of choss still up there....
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michaeld
Sport climber
Sacramento
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Dec 19, 2012 - 06:31pm PT
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I won't touch the crack at my gym unless i'm wearing gloves. You brush against it and get these terrible red rashes.
I've always wondered about staph outside in high populated masochism(crack) crags.
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