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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 29, 2003 - 10:34pm PT
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From the above replies, it looks like the most popular 5.12 in Yosemite is going away soon. It's not a personal issue with me, I'm too weak to sport climb!
Which brings us back to the poster's original question. Why are some added bolts allowed to stay? I'm sure the Hubers wouldn't need the bolts that were added to the last pitch of the nose in order to free it, and how about those free bolts right next to a crack on the Nose's changing corner's pitch? One of the most classic and historic routes in America! There are a long list of these kind of routes.
But I would beg to differ with Melissa about the quantity of good well protected routes in Yosemite if we're talking about face climbing. I've done the vast majority of longer face climbs under 5.11 in they valley and I can't seem to remember manythat don't have dangerous runouts. Can you name me five face climbs 4 pitcher or over that have good pro? Again, I'm being a bit of a devil's advocate. I enjoy being able to go out and never have a line on the face routes that I like.
Let them eat crack!
Peace
Karl
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 29, 2003 - 11:06pm PT
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Not to be a chump...
Royal Arches
EB of El Cap
EB of MIddle Cathedral
Steck/Salathe ????????
First pitches of CPofF
Runout is kind of variable, curious how far from bomber placements people generally accept as being "runout"?
For the Cookie Monster thing...I am torn. My first 12a onsight, probably cuz of the bolts (I mention only so you cyber-hoos say not to spout if you havent' been on it). Wonderful pitch.
My buddies were baiting me to climb it clean. Eyeing it up and after climbing it I don't think it would have been that bad. The previously posted account of the fellow leading it on gear says its butch, so I'll take his word.
I remember(resinated brain) that this was initially reported as 12c and then bolted and grade lowered.
Who was the first person to bolt this, and how did they justify it?
I hate bolted cracks, and I wonder how this one snuck in.
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 29, 2003 - 11:07pm PT
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Sorry Karl...reread your post and you said "face climbs"
I humbly bow out..
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Melissa
Big Wall climber
oakland, ca
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May 30, 2003 - 12:25am PT
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First of all, there aren't that many bolted face routes over 4 pitches in Yosemite in the first place. They following are no sport routes and some have a bit of crack, but you probably aren't going to end up paralyzed or dead either if you skid...
1. Mid Life Crisis
2. DNB to p7
3. Stoner's Highway
4. Crest Jewel
5. Arches Terrace (is R but should be no problem for someone who can climb 5.10 or 5.11 with more bolts)
6. Snake Dike (also R, but again, no problem for a 5.11 climber).
7. Royal Arches...tons of very moderate face.
8. After Six (3 pitches of a 5 pitch climb are mostly face)
Really it's the sub-5.8 routes that are the most lacking in the Valley. Just imagine how many more people Snake Dike would be accessible to if it had more bolts? Anyone want to sign up for that duty?
The Cobra (11a R) is one of the raddest looking lines in the Valley, IMO. I'll probably never be able to lead it. Oh well. I guess that it is my sad lot in life to simply be ispired by those that can while I admire it from down below
Personally, I find super-bolted multi-pitch climbs a la Potrero Chico kind of revolting and I am glad that the local ethic (probably along with the duress of hand drilling in granite) has kept these routes at bay. If you can climb 5.10 or 5.11 and you are still standing in line in Yosemite because you don't like the cracks and are too afraid of the face, then you need to go to Owens or Big Chief or find an undeveloped area in the Valley to put up your climbs.
Still, if you are hell bent on seeing these types of climbs in the Valley, why do would you want them to replace existing climbs?
Karl, it's no mystery why I'm not out putting up new 5.10- 5.11 face climbs. I couldn't. I do hope to find a couple of nice cracks that suit people near my level this season though. You, however, claim to have already done many of these bold leads. Instead of justifying the retrobolting the ones that you've done, ones that once attracted the same attention in the climbing communtiy as the hardest sport routes and boulder problems do today, why don't you go put up some of these moderate 5.10's and 11's (oxymoron?) lines that you find so sorely lacking? J and I are advocating preserving these ones, and we'll be putting our money and time where our mouths are by updating their hardware on any that we are capable of ascending.
Chopping bolts on aid lines once they are freed is a whole other can of worms. I passed my bandwidth quota for the day a long time ago, so I'm leaving it alone... It would seem though that the most respected free ascents of aid lines at the moment are those that are accomplished respecting the boldness of the aid line, and not destroying it by adding bolts. (i.e. Rumors about WDD really pissed people off whereas people aplauded Huber for running it out on very hard climbing with a single beak for pro on Corazon.)
Thoughts that J specifically asked me to pass on...(he doesn't have a web browser, so I'm paraphrasing)...If people were talking about making these climbs more physically accessible by chipping holds, everyone would be outraged. Slab climbing is not particularly strenuous on the body. It is strenuous on the mind. Perhaps given this factor a 5.10 R can be much more difficult than a 5.12 sport route. Just as it would be an anathema to chip the 5.12 down to a 10, it should be seen as an equal desacration to bolt the R down to a PG.
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WBraun
climber
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May 30, 2003 - 12:46am PT
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To all you obsessive folks with your bolt problems;
Dave Shultz first bolted it...ask him why, not me. For your info Kurt Smith almost died trying this route on the first ascent. He had his friend aid it with pitons and nuts and cams. (Friend was very inexperienced with placing pitons) At the crux he placed two Lost arrows. When Kurt tried to lead it he fell at this crux. As I was lowering him the pins shifted and if they had come out he would have hit the deck.(they came out by hand). The consciousness at the time was not about bolts or pins or clean but in doing this line free. The rock is fairly crumbly in various places and several KEY holds have broken in the past years making some of the moves harder. Nuts and cams can rip out easily on this cimb and you know the scenario that can result. Most of you haven't seen enough of the people we've picked up at the base after one of these hit the deck missions. Get a life folks and go climbing stop worrying about all this bolt sh#t. Werner Braun
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2003 - 01:11am PT
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First of all, thanks for any hardware upgrades that you and J are involved in. You should know that I think J is a great guy and I have lots of appreciation for you as well.
There are dozens of multipitch face routes in the valley!
I'm afraid you failed to come up with a list of face climbs with OK pro. Crest Jewel might qualify as well protected but calling the Arches or After Six a face climb is a stretch. A 100 foot fall is possible on the rest of those routes you listed. I don't think Snake Dike should be made safe, but it's hardly an example of a route with OK Pro. Somebody fell 200 feet on it! (they were OK, if I remember)
I'm not an advocate of retrobolting or chopping. I'm just hashing out the ethic and discovering what people think and why. Folks pay lip service to the desires and rights of FA parties, but often just want things their own way.
Yosemite has tons of multipitch face climbs. I think it's kinda sad that vast quanities of rock have been climbed but so little is available to most climbers. It's not about me. I don't bolt and I don't chop. But I don't see the point in hanging on to every single death route in the valley whether the first ascent party wants to upgrade it or not.
I also never said anywhere that any of these lines should become sport routes. There has been some nasty retrobolting on Poker Face and Sleight of Hand. Somebody went too far.
On the other hand, the first ascender of Dakshina is headed back to that route this year to replace the old bolts and turn the death runouts into R runouts. Would you like to protest in advance so he doesn't have to face somebody chopping his own route. Anybody here done Dakshina?
It's a bit irrelevant anyway. Most folks hate slab routes these days. I'm just a dinasaur. I go to the Arches Apron, GP Apron, and Middle all the time and it's great to have the peace of nobody in line for the routes. I'm totally willing to go along with the consensus of the local community, but it's important to dialog to find out what that consensus is.
Peace
karl
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 30, 2003 - 01:30am PT
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Werner and Karl gave good explanations why the bolts
on Cookie Monster have stayed (and will continue to stay) -
just too many positives for keeping them there, and too
many negatives from removing them.
I'd like to say more about bolts on Middle Cathedral,
but I'd like to see it appear under a separate thread.
Clint Cummins
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Clint Cummins
Trad climber
SF Bay area, CA
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May 30, 2003 - 01:39am PT
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Karl posted (a few days ago):
>Ho Chi Mihn Trail takes of after the scary face pitches of
>the DNB. Not as many grunt sections but harder than the DNB. >The 10c OW is pretty light for the grade so fear not.
>(I led it, how bad could it be?)
There is no 5.10c ow, the way I do the Ho, at least.
Perhaps the topo is unclear. The topo in "Yosemite Climbs:
Free Climbs" (Don Reid, 1994) is accurate and does not
say 5.10c ow anywhere. Probably you are thinking of the
start of p12, where it says "5.10c lb (lichen)". Some people
prefer to climb the (5.9?) wide crack to the left, rather
than do the lieback/undercling to the right in the lichen.
Clint
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rbreedlove
Trad climber
Cleveland Heights, Ohio
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May 30, 2003 - 03:56am PT
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Karl: "Let them eat crack" LOL.
Roger
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BrentA
Gym climber
estes park
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May 30, 2003 - 08:26am PT
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Werner...
Thanks for answering my questions. Your route history and rationale for bolting are also much appreciated.
Hmmmmmm...Dave Schultz? Never heard of him, he must be a weenie!
PSYCH!!!! Uber proud brotha!
With this little tale I hope my young peers defer to the wisdom of their elders and leave the bolts in situ.
Cheers,
Brent
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vernon
Trad climber
san francisco, ca
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Topic Author's Reply - May 30, 2003 - 09:07am PT
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Sorry everyone. When I originally posted this question, I wasn't trying to piss everyone off. I am not a super star climber, just a regular guy who was trying to understand the local ethics. I guess there is no easy answer. I still don't get it. Dave Schultz is bad ass, and put up a bad ass route, so it wasn't chopped? Was Walt Shipley any less of a bad ass? He told me that he put a bolt on the EB of El Cap to make it easier and safer for him to guide. I believe it wasn't chopped until after he died. So, I guess the criteria varys with whoever is the chopper. Like Werner said, let's just let it go, and get on the stone. PLEASE do not chop Cookie Monster!
Take Care
Vern
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Karl Baba
Trad climber
Yosemite, Ca
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May 30, 2003 - 09:51am PT
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Don't be sorry Vern. We might have set the world record for civil discussion on this issue without descending into name calling!
Interesting how the myth and the history differ too.
Best wishes and respect to folks on both sides of the issue. Let's keep sharing the rock in the wisest cooperative way we can manage.
PEace
karl
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CF
climber
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May 30, 2003 - 11:44am PT
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The route was first done with fixed pro and pitons. Yes Daniella did do the route. If you chop this route it will be replaced with bolts that are even harder to chop. So if you want a lot of old holes and bashed down bolts go ahead and chop it. IT WILL BE REBOLTED AND QUICKLY.
If you are really concerned about non-first ascent bolts why don’t you go chop all the non-first ascent bolts on El Capitan? Over half of the bolts on the Nose were not place by the first ascent party.
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Hardman Knott
Gym climber
Marin Hot Tub Country
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May 30, 2003 - 02:04pm PT
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This has been a great thread. Really nice to hear from those
with first hand info -- quite refreshing in fact. Thanks!
It would be especially ludicrous for the route to be chopped
by someone who hadn't led it placing gear on lead,
something even the FA-ist's didn't do. So WTF is the point?
Hardman Knott
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Matt
Trad climber
SF Bay Area
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May 30, 2003 - 02:15pm PT
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btw-
When I wrote: "It seems to me that to go back and add bolts to a climb way after the fact is just to open a huge can of worms", I should have said "...add or remove bolts way after the fact..."
Also-
I didn't really get the idea from what I read here that anyone was seriously advocating the chopping of this line, someone was just asking why the bolts were there when the climb was 1st done w/out them, and why they had stayed when other bolts get chopped (and I thought WB gave a pretty good explanation- thanks).
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Pastrami
Trad climber
Somewhere on this Planet
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May 30, 2003 - 02:52pm PT
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It was refreshing to read balanced posts from guys like Karl. I am wondering why most of the bolt wars/word-wars are started and fed by younger people... It seems to me that these people are so full of themselves they got to some level (any level), that they seem threatened by any other approach. No matter the subject, when I see someone overly vocal about a subject, a question comes immediately to my mind: what is sub-conscientiously threatening this person to provoke such a passionate/extreme reaction (see Freud/Jung)? 9 times out of 10, it is some sort of "achievement" they realized and feel threatened by others (I cannot climb 5.14, but I have sack because I sewed that thin crack every 2 feet, or I can climb 5.13 and that guy that does those aid moves - that scare me to death - is a moron, etc).
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Alexey
Trad climber
San Jose, CA
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Dec 17, 2012 - 02:50am PT
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Most of you haven't seen enough of the people we've picked up at the base after one of these hit the deck missions. Get a life folks and go climbing stop worrying about all this bolt sh#t. Werner Braun bump old, interesting tread
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