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Ralphy
Trad climber
Green Honda Element
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I simul rap all the time! If you are on a solid anchor (like 2 shiny beefy bolts) and both partners are totally tuned into what's going on, I feel its totally safe. I also feel that it is significantly faster than rapping one at a time. Its a good idea for both partners to have an auto-locking device or one of those little prussics around the leg loop. Always tie knots in the end of your line. With a good partner, it is so convenient and fast.
It goes something like this:
1. Always feed the thicker rope through the anchors.
2. I prefer to always use the same side every time (if Im on the skinny rope I am on the skinny rope every time. This minimizes confusion as to who can unweight first.)
3. Both partners rig devices and check each other.
4. Ready? Ready. 3, 2, 1, weight.
5. Rapping. Skinny rope person slightly ahead of thick rope (remember, thick rope is threaded)
6. Skinny rope person reaches anchor and tethers in. (skinny rope guy can unweight without effecting the guy on the thick rope because of the knot.)
7. Thick rope guy arrives at anchor and tethers in.
8. Working together to set up the next rap begins as soon as both people are tethered.
9. Repeat many, many, times.
Maybe slightly more confusing the very first time you do it but it is SO FAST. And I really think it is safe, the added benefit of being in communication the whole time is awesome. I only do this with partners I know well and trust, typically I only climb with partners I know well and trust.
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Brian in SLC
Social climber
Salt Lake City, UT
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I've done it a few times, mostly to get off a spire that didn't have a top anchor. And, only with a partner I really really trust.
Had some friends have a close call when one was chattin' at a rap anchor, and, the other took off, got to the bottom, and removed the rope from his rappel device. Top person leaned back and plummetted. Guy at the anchor stopped the fall, but, with serious rope burns to his hand.
There was a recent accident here in Big Cottonwoood, just a couple weeks back, where some guys simul rapped and one lost control of the rappel. Lucky they weren't hurt worse, but, one ended up in the ER fairly busted up.
Even on longer routes, where I've had to do 15 in a row, we didn't simul rap. Usually on fairly skinny twins, too, and, with any tangles...its a cluster enough solo on the ropes.
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Borut
climber
french
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I never did what is decribed, but rapped with someone on my back. On vertical terrain it's easier because the carried person's weight is taken over by the rope, but it's tough on less than vertical. This was during an improvised rescue drill, and I know it's not what the topic is about. Just couldn't help it.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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I'll do a simulrap with you LS
how to put this delicately?
well, the one simo i did that really terrified me was with someone who was about half my body weight.
heh
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 02:05pm PT
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Heh, I was gonna let this thread go off the first page, but y'alls keep bringing it back, heh!
All the simul raps I've done, my partner has considerably outweighed me...So it's not impossible, it was just very important to me...and one of my partners...that we stayed side by side. Part of the pre-requisite.
That being said, I'm a heavy pudgy kinda girl, so don't just assume that you guys all outweigh climbers like myself!
Heh...
weight is a factor, but it's not a big deal as it's cracked up to be...especially for a heavyweight like myself!
Cheers
LS
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Yeah Kerwin. In case of major weight difference, the heavier person should rappel on the strand that is blocked from moving by the knot. Or, if the rappel is on a single rope rather than a knotted pair, the rigging used for rappelling with a tag line should be used to keep the heavier person from pulling rope through the anchor.
Note, however, that in the case of knotted-together ropes, this interferes with the efficient threading of the rappel when doing multiple rappels. Ralphy's procedure has the same efficiency deficit. This diminishes the overall speed effect, which is the primary reason to simul-rap.
Another possibility for major weight differences is to link the two climbers with a long sling.
It seems that the biggest danger in rappelling generally comes from complacency born of the routine nature of the activity. Make simul-rapping routine rather than occasional and you add its additional danger points to the inattention risk pool. At least as a special-use activity, you'll be more scared, as you should be...
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 2, 2012 - 02:18pm PT
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Cheers rgold for such clear and easily understood clarification of the factors involved.
It's wonderful
and this might make me a geek, but it makes me smile!
And...I'll say, if I ever do a simul-rap again, I won't forget my camera ;)!
or I'll just have Dingus handle the camera, since we all know it never really leaves his hand...hee hee! Either way, goal achieved...
Stay safe so you can enjoy the beer at the bottom folks!
Cheers
LS
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the Fet
climber
Tu-Tok-A-Nu-La
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Isn't simul-rapping mandatory on some routes in the Needles of South Dakota?
I haven't been there for years, but there were some route that you had to just drape the rope over the top of a spire and carefully simul-rap. That's the way real hard men do it, not you pussy Americans of today.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Yeah, we rapped off a bunch of pinnacles that way BITD. The goal was to leave everything as pristine as possible, so no ugly slings on top and no bolted rappel anchors if it could possibly be avoided. Those who followed were either "softer men" or lacked the imagination or interest to figure out how people had been getting down without leaving anything.
That said, simul-rapping was not ideal, because afterwards you still had to drag a rope over the top of the pinnacle, and given the highly abrasive Needles rock, your ropes wouldn't last long at all. So we started bringing some extra ropes, which we left on the ground during the climb, and then employed as follows:
One person would rap to the ground, if necessary using the other person as an anchor. A second rope was then pulled up, a loop tied in it with rap rings installed, and the other end of this second rope was anchored on the ground by the climber already down. The second climber threaded a rappel rope through the rings, rapped off the other side of the pinnacle, and pulled their rope. The anchor rope could then be pulled over the top of the pinnacle, there being just a short piece with the loop hanging down the opposite side.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Kevin.... I agree 100% on both counts.
Bottom line for me is, whatever it takes to make great route.
Hope to get down to SD this winter/spring, friends tell me its all good.
And to answer to OP.....
Only time I simu rap is when there is no anchor, you go down one side I go the other.... Rob Raker style.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Bunch of madatory, anchorless rappels at Pinnacles.
You may or may not be in earshot of your partner.
This technique is going to be in the next outdoor climbing class...
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clockclimb
Trad climber
Orem, Utah
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Simul-rapping with gri-gri's is a very bad idea. The inside of the gri-gri gets very hot very quickly. It is steel inside which does not conduct heat away quickly. There is also not a good thermal path to the outside walls of the gri-gri. Lowering a heavy person quickly through steel chain links can also melt your rope. I have been there when rope sheaths have been melted through in both of the above scenarios.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Simul rap only when there is no other option, never to save time.
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RyanD
climber
Squamish
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I don't do it often but it is a good technique to have in the quiver.
If u went to Potrero & didn't u probably could have done a lot more climbing and a lot less descending in the dark.
Tie the ends of the rope together.
Use a Grigri/backup.
Pay attention, sigh-moe-rapping doesn't kill people, mistakes do.
Sometimes time is safety.
Pretty much every situation in climbing is circumstantial, a blanket statement saying "simul rapping is dangerous" is just ridiculous.
Setting up a toprope is inherently more dangerous IMO.
It's not usually techniques that are dangerous but often how they are executed.
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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Here's some guesses about speed savings for multiple 150 foot rappels.
Each person raps separately:
Threading device: Each person takes 10 secs = 20 secs
Pace: 5 ft/sec, (brisk walking pace, about 3.4 mph) each person takes 30 secs = 60 secs
Getting off rappel: each person takes 5 secs = 10 secs
Total time: 90 secs.
Simul rap:
Threading device: Each person takes 10 secs = 10 secs.
Pace 3 ft/sec (because of extra caution, slow walking pace, about 2 mph): each person takes 50 secs = 50 secs.
Getting off rappel: each person takes 5 secs = 5 secs.
Total time: 65 secs. Time saved: 25 secs per rappel. Let's call it half a minute.
So over twenty rappels, you save ten minutes. If the simul-rappers don't slow down as I suggested, they could save fifteen minutes instead of ten.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2012 - 01:02am PT
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man, I'm totally amazed this is still a point of contention as it seems very clear that most people are against it on principle.
Something about trusting your life to your partner and all the other bits seem to give people the heebeegeebees.
Which I can understand.
Every time a partner lowers me off the top of TR, I feel the same way...I mean, what if a rock hits them in the head and I go plummeting? My life is in their hands...
I figured this thread would have died by post 25 at least...
Cheers
LS
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Ed Hartouni
Trad climber
Livermore, CA
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ok rgold
what if the probability of a FU on each rap for one person is, say P,
the probability that you FU on a single rap is P
the probability that either you or your partner FU is 2P
you have twice the chance of being involved in an FU... if the probability remains the same.
In all likelihood, the probability of an individual FU is actually greater, in my opinion, on a simul-rap since: 1) it is not a commonly used technique, 2) single rope raps are also unusual and have to be treated somewhat differently (use two 'biners instead of one...) 3) you have to do something very different at the end of the rap than you usually do (that is, not unweight the rope before your partner does).
In usual risk analysis, the risk of not simul-rapping has to be higher than the risk of simul-rapping for it to make any sense.
I've done it, late (a bad time since you're rushing... and it was my first time), to clean routes and because we had to move the rap station by a pendulum over to a horn, where you couldn't get the ropes back to the second (in retrospect we probably could have done that differently!).
Part of the tool kit, but it there would have to be a really good reason to do it.. to overcome the increased risk.
In my opinion...
and 20 raps... geeze, can't we just walk down?
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rgold
Trad climber
Poughkeepsie, NY
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LS, it isn't about trust or lack of trust partner at all. Simul-rapping is more complicated and presents more ways for something to go wrong. In addition, when something does go wrong, it is more likely to kill both climbers. So, RyanD notwithstanding, there is an objective sense in which it is more dangerous than ordinary rappelling---the probability of a failure times the expected number of fatalities is just plain higher, and there is nothing anyone can say or do to change that. (See Ed's comment above as well, posted while I was typing this.)
Which doesn't mean there might not be reasons to choose simul-rapping anyway. Climbers make choices of objectively riskier procedures all the time, usually because they feel that the additional risks are more than offset by the extra speed their choices confer, but also because they are confident that they can control the extra risk factors.
The history of rappelling and lowering accidents suggests that confidence might be illusory, however, and my guesstimates above suggest the time savings from simul-rapping are likely to be pretty insignificant.
That still leaves some situations that might call for simul-rapping, like the absence of anchors at the top of a pinnacle, and if you want to do it for fun in casual circumstances, the heightened sense of caution and lack of stress would be in your favor.
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ladyscarlett
Trad climber
SF Bay Area, California
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Topic Author's Reply - Nov 4, 2012 - 01:29am PT
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Damned if I don't love it when you guys all tell me I'm wrong...
hee hee
dunno if it's the way you say it, but it makes me smile!
:)!
Cheers
LS
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