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John M
climber
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:30pm PT
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I capiche, He shouldn't have died. He just likely - would - have died.
Same difference if you ask me.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:45pm PT
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i share the concerns over possible consequences of rising costs of mountain rescue in our current political climate.
but i don't see enough info yet to make a serious judgment on thisd case.
i've so far seen one sentence in an online post. early reports may be accurate or may not-- i trust that the op is being straightforward, and i appreciate the post, but i don't even know if the op was an eyewitness, part of the team, part of sar, at the rock on an adjacent route, or just relaying stuff 2ndhand.
i'm also having some trouble visualizing wehre this happened-- wandering out over onto that slabby bit of jonah on the 2nd pitch? that wouldn't be all that far off the deck. close enough it's difficult to imagine a helivac being an obvious response.
and even if the initial reports are accurate, i still don't know what "busted ankle" means. a bad break causing arterial bleeding would be really serious and potentially risky to self-evac.
a sprained ankle or a minor break would be an entirely different story.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 06:55pm PT
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As a responsible climbing partner performing self rescue, you should be able to make a accurate assesment as to the life threatening condition, sight unseen.
If your not capable of managing the rescue, your partner is sh#t out of luck.
Right Guyman? Donini?
Please enlighten me as to what you both really meant with those comments.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:04pm PT
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Mucci.... sorry for your loss.
When I said "CLIMBERS should not have SAR" I really mean it.
It (SAR) makes climbers weak and not as fearfull, or thoughtfull as they should be.
It seems like people get a hangnail now and they want that helo ride.
Almost all climbers I meet say things like: "I want to go climb in Peru, or Patagonia or ?????????"
Well guess what.... NO SAR in those places, at all.
Having that helo at the ready, makes you complacent, I think.
But I'm just a dinosaur....
I still kan't recall if a chopper ever had to make a pick up at Taquitz or Suicide during the 1970-1980 decade.
Any of you old guys recall??? Locker, x15x15, cant say, levi..., app
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GDavis
Social climber
SOL CAL
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:10pm PT
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It seems like people get a hangnail now and they want that helo ride.
I would wonder what the reality is from someone in SAR.
Sometimes they do it even if the climber refuses, because certain type of trauma, like head trauma, it is a precation.
Unfortunately the world isn't so simple... Some of the baddest climbers on Earth have been helicoptered out, and many wish they could have been.
I still kan't recall if a chopper ever had to make a pick up at Taquitz or Suicide during the 1970-1980 decade.
Good question, a woman did bleed to death on Sahara Terror around that time. She was a REAL climber, though, by some definitions here...
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:12pm PT
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A helo extraction is a choice made by IC, not by the victim.
Funny how often you see a helo...
Maybe that's because SAR uses all tools necessary to save lives.
They don't take chances, and I would wager a bet that they never even think about the cost of a short haul when a persons life is in question.
The first short haul in Yos was to pluck my good friend off of half dome.
Glad they didn't question the severity of that situation.
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Jon Beck
Trad climber
Oceanside
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:25pm PT
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Drivers have AAA towing, boaters have Vessel Assist, on water towing. Maybe it is time to privatize mountain rescue. Seriously, the rocks are packed, I am seeing dollar signs.
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Alois
Trad climber
Idyllwild, California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:34pm PT
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I have lived here in Idyllwild for 13 years now full time, climbed on Tahquitz some 39 years. From our deck we can see the rock and the heli pad at Saunders Meadow real well. In the last 10 years, almost every summer weekend there is SAR action or paramedics at Humber Park; I'm not kidding, almost every weekend some rescue action is going on. Years back, this just did not happen. It is NOT just more people climbing, it is what their skill level is that is the problem. I meet people every week, who guidebook in hand, walk the base of the rock and ask about routes that are on the other side of the formation,people who construct cairns on the climber's trail because they don't know how to get down etc. I pick up garbage Monday-Friday at the rock left not by hikers but us climbers. Tahquitz is a mess and building more trails and improving things will make it even worse. Unfortunatelly, people think Tahquitz is the best place for that first ever multi-pitch lead and with experience or without, they go for it. Notice that almost no accidents in the last 20 years occured on routes at or above 5.9.. skill level is the issue at Tahquitz...
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 07:57pm PT
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Alois.... thanks for cleaning up.
And to Kos... at a Motorsport event, part of what you get for your entry fee is Medical Personal, expectations of a safe track and some sort of order or control.
And Jon... $$$$$$ true. Even if it is in a round about way, just add on to the cost of park entry or that Golden Eagle and a percentage goes to SAR.
I figure when I go Skiing, at a resort, pay my $$$ and go have fun, one of my EXPECTATIONS is that I get a nice, cute Ski Patrol person who knows how to handle things when I break my leg.
But I never have that expectation when I go climbing, ever.
Climbing is so obviously dangerous that to expect any help whatsoever is to fool yourself.
OH YEA... to GDavis... that poor women died in the 80's
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em kn0t
Trad climber
isle of wyde
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Sep 24, 2012 - 08:53pm PT
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I just spent my first weekend out on the rock after shattering my heel bone on a leader fall. Daphne, very glad to hear you're back on the rock and thanks for sharing the story of your epic self-rescue. Friends and friendly strangers rock. I've looked online for the full story of how you fell and found nothing; understandable if you have self doubts about your accident. Believe me, I beat myself over the head on a regular basis for the mistakes that led to my fall & broken ankle. (Yes, I also self-rescued with the help of friends but the descent and hopping on one foot through the forest back to the car was trivial compared to yours.) Hope you continue to heal up and climb well.
As for the bigger picture on rescues, several thoughts from the peanut gallery:
HUGE RESPECT and thanks to anyone who commits time and efforts to SAR missions, plus all the training required to do so. I believe a lot of SAR folks are unpaid volunteers. Respect also for paid SAR staff, EMTs & paramedics; jobs that take heart, dedication mega-training and maybe crazy hours & hazardous conditions. Donate to your local SAR folks!
PAYING THE PIPER: For heli rescues it seems only right to pay the cost if some public safety agency is not covering it. Some medical insurance will pay this; apparently this was the case with a friend's wife who was injured in a long bike race and needed heli evac. Check your own insurance?
American Alpine Club (AAC) membership includes Global Rescue insurance:
All members are automatically enrolled in a $5,000 Global Rescue Trailhead Benefit and a $5,000 Domestic Rescue Insurance Benefit. .
In addition, the AAC discounts page has optional accident insurance which sounds pretty reasonable especially for young folks who get a deal on AAC membership and may have no medical insurance but few other medical issues:
Accident Insurance Benefit* Starting at only $18 a month, you can get coverage for all accidents no matter how they occur. This includes climbing, skiing, snowboarding, or any other sport that you enjoy. In fact, it covers any kind of accident 24/7 worldwide whether you’re on the job or just enjoying yourself. If you’re not a skier or snowboarder, plans start at $15 a month. This plan is a perfect supplement to any health insurance policy and is critically important to those of us without health insurance. http://americanalpineclub.org/p/insurance
SELF RESCUE: Often non-trivial. Few beginner or even some advanced climbers would have the skills or knowledge for self-rescue techniques like escaping the belay, ascending to a fallen partner, hauling up or lowering an injured person or doing a counter-weight rappel. All these are described in David Fasulo's book "Self Rescue" (Falcon 1996); there may be other books by now. Better yet, take a self-rescue course because this stuff takes hands-on practice to understand. Anyone know of upcoming self-rescue courses offered?
WILDERNESS FIRST AID: take a WFR course (or at minimum a basic first-aid class, but community first aid will not prepare you for non-urban situations.) Better yet make sure your primary partner does this too; like avy beacons, when the poop hits the fan and you're the one in deep doo-doo, it only helps if your partner knows how to save you.
Please forgive if this is preaching to the choirmasters; just trying to channel my inner Brutus and think what he might say...we did all of the above training and were glad of it. I only wish Brutus were here to bring his true wisdom and insane humor to the subject. Humble apologies for excess verbosity, misteaks or stoopidities.
Donning my fireproof turn-outs & helmet to survive the flame wars (glad I belong to volunteer fire department). Head down, broken ankle elevated & back to the wall at the old climbers home,
em of wyde
Edit: To clmbrbell, I hope you don't consider this post to be harsh comments or that I think the climbers were wrong to not be more prepared. Sh!+ happens, and I fully support the decision to call SAR in this situation. I for one would NEVER want to self-evac down the steep trail to Humber -- even being carried by friends would be hazardous for both the injured and the rescuers. Very best wishes to the injured climber for full and uncomplicated recovery.
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clmberbell
Social climber
the astral plane
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Sep 24, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Wow! Harsh comments. I saw the fall and pretty much everything after from The Vampire. They were attempting to lower and take care of their buddy. At some point he passed out. This is when everyone started screaming for SAR and rightly so.
Show a little compassion people...
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mountainlion
Trad climber
California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 09:33pm PT
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Alois +1 I agree I posted a thread on Mountainproject "tahquitz isn't for beginners" and was roundly thrashed for it. I still have that opinion. But I also realized telling other people what they can and can't do isn't the answer.
However I do know several climbers who have been climbing for a little more than a year who do have the skills, climbing ability, disposition, and desire to climb there. They were all mentored by X15X15.
Glad to hear that these climbers made it to the ground on there own. Hope for a swift recovery without mobility issues for the injured climber.
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Ksolem
Trad climber
Monrovia, California
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Sep 24, 2012 - 09:58pm PT
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Alois comments above are spot on.
I'm not saying that SAR should not have been called out in this case, but in general there are many rescues on Tahquitz, and skill level is the issue. Tahquitz is a dangerous alpine crag in perhaps too easily accessible a situation.
Sure once in a while something just happens by chance, but even in cases where "objective dangers" like rockfall are the cause it turns out that someone made the choice to climb a dangerous loose alpine crag below other parties. This is not a skillful decision. Get up earlier.
I have nothing but compassion for the injured climber and respect for the party as a group to get themselves safely off the wall into the hands of SAR, but getting off route from 5.4 to 5.10 is a skill issue and I hope that they are able to enjoy future climbs but with a bit more wisdom as to their route finding decisions.
Sorry to be wordy but route finding is a real issue at Tahquitz. Folks need to study the rock from a distance to understand the major features, so when they are at the base they can see where they are and where the routes are, and then when they are up on the rock they can navigate because they understand their surroundings.
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klk
Trad climber
cali
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:01pm PT
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I saw the fall and pretty much everything after from The Vampire. They were attempting to lower and take care of their buddy. At some point he passed out.
thanks, that's helpful.
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donini
Trad climber
Ouray, Colorado
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:05pm PT
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A broken ankle...a thread that should die after a half dozen posts.
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mucci
Trad climber
The pitch of Bagalaar above you
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Sep 24, 2012 - 10:43pm PT
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You were post #9 Jim. Just sayin.
This thread IS worthy. You can tell a lot about folks from what they write.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 24, 2012 - 11:35pm PT
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I am happy nobody died. We don't need that now do we?
Far to many this year.
I'm always interested in how people "TAKE" or interpret just what is written on the net.
Far to many miss it when the conversation goes up a notch.
New question/statement: SAR gives people a un-realistic portrail of SAFTY in climbing.
And to EM's execlent comments: You self rescued because you knew how to do that, you are a true climber, Tough and self reliant.
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G_Gnome
Trad climber
Pebble Wrestling.... Badly lately.
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Sep 25, 2012 - 12:14am PT
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Of course Guy, if we didn't have SARs I think Jeff would be dead now, as would my wife, as would Hershey. Be careful what you ask for....
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leopop
climber
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:19am PT
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And yet another condescending string of emails about an accident. Climbers are such pompous as#@&%es sometimes. People get in accidents, experienced and amateur alike. People are hired and trained to rescue those people when something like this happens. Let's leave it at that.
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guyman
Social climber
Moorpark, CA.
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Sep 25, 2012 - 01:53am PT
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"And yet another condescending string of emails about an accident. Climbers are such pompous as#@&%es sometimes. People get in accidents, experienced and amateur alike. People are hired and trained to rescue those people when something like this happens. Let's leave it at that."
What are you stupid?
You calling us pompous ....
How do you think WE learn about just what goes down???????
Way back we did talk about this stuff, around campfires, long into the nite.
That is why we don't:
Set up anchors on one bolt.
Use those carabiner "Break Bar" tings.
Make long "sport draws" that are not bar tacked.
Carry runners over two shoulders.
and on and on.....
And now that we have a "internet forum" reaching around the globe YOU don't think we should talk about accidents?
You think its condescending?
Really?
I find that pretty odd.
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